Here is a way to remove Complexity

You can remove the complexity of ship creation/building by reworking the slot system. You should beable to pull metrics to see the average fittings of each ships. This will also double over the potential to improve class values (for ships like recons) as well as the overall balance.

You’ll probably have to start with doing somethings that i suggested in the past. For example, shifting a new “slot” (low,med,high) for ewar. Then reworking all eward to a general, across the board system where they apply 1 point of power, vs the counter anti-war point of power, much like we have with warp core/warp stab systems.

This will enable the modular slot for ewar to be generic, simplistic and “at first glance” understandable. From here you may have to create similar systems to other common aspects of the game, im sure you can figure it out (though im afraid if leaving it to your capability because of your lack of insight in design choices).

you may want to investigate shifting armor and shields into primary, and secondary defensive systems.

Examples of primary would be reps, and secondary would be extenders or hardeners, then shift the slot count accordingly to force build variance, where you will allow for customization which is where you will acquire some diversity in build performance.

Im sure the same concept could be applied to low slot upgrades for weapon systems.

The good thing about this is by shifting the system in this way you will help validate slots for specific roles, which will help diversity more, interestingly instead of harm it, but at the same time it will make such diversity lower, which will help remove larger amounts of complexity.

mandating specific slot types to specific module types will also remove complexity in the aspect that new players will see “ewar slot” or “weapon upgrade slot” and instantly know they need to put a specific module type there, which means that new recon pilots will always have ewar, and be geared toward that style of game play. this will help remove the aspects of a new recon pilot not having ewar, when vets depend on it.

With out putting much thought in it, I would imagine the major aspects of eve’s complexity comes from the ship building, and the ultra-ship game play (ie trajectory etc).

I know its crazy, but it might be work investigating removing the tracking concept out right from eve, and just making all damage be applied, and have a chance to crit, shifting the majority of that loss into larger alpha’s which will make the game less predictable, more simplistic (in the way that new players dont have to learn advanced concepts like spiraling).
Again, that should improve over all balance and remove a large amount of that skill based complex game play.

I think this principle can be adapted universally. For example, stations in high sec do not warn new players they have fighter capability, which old players take advantage of. If this was more evident, maybe by making the ai remind them, it would be resolved.

I’ll put some more thought into t he complex aspects of eve, but the majority is above and in base pvp engagement mechanics like suicide ganking rules in high sec, which could be streamlined (removed) to help make the experience more intuitive to playerbase.

in that wall of text you somehow forgot a “why”


Because that is what ccp wants to do, remove complexity. They should, as complexity directly limits the amount of potential players a game can have. Its one of the two major controllers of game population. Grank it up, you lose pop. This is why they are looking to remove it, to retain more players and grow eve.

Where did CCP wrote they wanted to remove the complexity as you describe it ?
Complexity is not a factor of player loss. Tediousness is.
Music is very complex yet a lot of people enjoy it.
Complexity is a quality.


Removing complexity = dumbing down the game, if it is too hard for you go play WoW.


They have already done what you want. The game is called Valkyrie.

Listen to the recent pod cast by them. Complexity is misunderstood by players and often confused with depth. Players think of “options” when they think of complexity, but actually, depth offers options just as complexity does. The difference between the two is that complexity offers a deeper level of gain by investigating ways choices can be exploited. This often results in abuse, especially of newer players or those less capabile (due to time restrictions) or less willing to investigate it.

As a result, you either get people that dont understand, that dont want to understand, or dont have the time to understand. When we talk about eve, this choice was made out of a bad development position (ie the designers were ignorant of the by-products that come from it). Because of these things, you get less people playing the game.

all the while, simply creating depth would of allowed customization/options, but not have these problems.

Complexity is not responsible for loss as much as it is for population just not being interested in the game (keeping in mind there a small grace period exists in a game for people to “try it” before we can blame anything for being the cause of them “not liking it”).

No, It is not. This tells me your part of the boomer age of players, and that you are egotistical in nature. Which is fine, thats part of our generation, however, that is not what the new generations are like.

you can say it like this. Those who advocate for complexity and gaining power through investigation of deeper game mechanics are a dying breed limited to one age group born between 1970 and 2000.

for a game like eve, that needs to adapt to new generations to grow and survive, your/our age groups position needs to be ignored out right.

The way you put this is not accurate. Removing complexity is taking the power out of the choices you make. To be clear, power in this case is refering to deeper math and exploitation of mechanics.

an example of complexity is

“you gain 100 more damage for every 100 shields you have”
So players look at ways to buff shields to gain more tank, and more damage

an example of depth is
“gain 10% of shields” or (a second option) “gain 10% of regeneration”.

In the case of depth, everything that is possible is recognized instantly, depth however could offer options to investigate ways to abuse and gain more then you should. This lack of instant understanding results in complexity, and ultimately abuse.

this tells me you are a dickhead, and -20 mental age.

You are mistaking complexity as bad wording. This also tells me you are a complete retard and -30 mental age.

You have no idea how the game works, but believe that you are magically the only person able to understand the situation.
I correct you : you are not better than all the people who came here before you. In fact, your inexperienced opinion and constant will to force it on other makes you a slutty brat, begging for attention which he does not deserve.
You are nothing, and you are worth nothing, and you will remain nothing till you have that attitude.

Ho I get it, you are the complete retarded “I am a pro dev for at least 6 months so I know better than the whole planet” who needed to put “as a game dev myself” in every one of his posts becasue he did not have any single argument.

I thought I had put you on ignore list …

The hardest part of this game for people that leave is there are now WASD controls with a big gun you can use to shoot other players. The game can be boring if your not self motivated and thats more of a reason we lose players.

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Before we get too far, I just want to remind people of what kind of person naari is.

But yeah, we’re really missing a huge “why” and also, by what metrics will we determine whether or not a fit or type of fitting is useful?

If you haven’t noticed, we already have Community Fittings coming out already that seem to just skip the meds and go straight to giving people better fits.


Why not go all in and have one single ship for everyone and a single F1 button? :facepalm:

Because that would make this space wow, and thats not what makes eve, eve.

removing some of the complexity while still allowing for various forms of options (like the type of ewar your recon uses) allows the options for builds to stay, but removes a lot of complexity.

in short it acts as a sort of training wheel to new players.

Exactly what my sarcastic question was pointing out, it turns the entirety of EVE into a kid level game regarding complexity instead of what it is now: a game where those who bother to learn the system can game it and be much more successful than the lazy ones who just want to be spoon fed.

In EVE it is deliberate game design to separate the wheat from the chaff, to award skillfulness and smart thinking and decision making versus those who are lazy and entitled who should be left behind instead of awarded. People achieve as much as they are willing to put in, in opposition with the appeal to masses dumbing down of games where everyone is doomed to get the same or similar results regardless if it is earned or not.

Not everyone should be a winner as that makes the entire concept of competition meaningless. My previous post was a hyperbole to demonstrate just that, glad you agree with it even if you still might think your suggestion is not as bad but the truth is that it leads to the same result either immediately or over time.

Can you actually tell us, in your words, what makes eve, eve. And like actual stuff not just the same old repeated memes. Because given your past record of posts, it doesn’t seem like you know what makes eve, eve.

What makes this game is not the large battles, that is something limited to null. I know ccp tries to sell the game on this point but they are doing it all wrong.

What makes this game truly unique, truly special is the player narrative. This is where ccp should focus their efforts. Unfortunately a lot of that is lost due to abusive players like yourself, and a badly design corporate, and diplomatic system.

Considering iv been in this game much longer then you have, i’d imagine that statement is not even close to being accurate.

No it does not. Kid level of game play is at like a 1 out of 10. Dumbing down complexity of eve from a 11 to 7 is not going to hurt anything. The issue is you and the other egotistical players want to rofl pwn the noobs. The truth is, your part of a breed of players, born in a specific set of years, that are advocating for a mentality long due to die.

The future of this game, of any game is not with people who think like you. Its with the fornites, and wow’s of the industry.

Which is why eve will never even dare to touch their level of success, and could not even think about challenging that success.

From this point, I am telling you, it is impossible for this game to ever reach those levels of population or income. They can improve, but they will never get to that point. CCP would have to create an entirely new game, without the complexity to make that work.

that’s just your delirium tremens.

Ah you can’t have a conversation without personal attacks, you have just lost all credibility and proved that you are not worth responding to, thus you and your suggestion is null and void.

/thread :dealwithitparrot:

Eh? But you wanted to turn eve into “Farmville/WoW-clone” with all your suggestions a few months ago, because “thats what smart devs do - follow general trends in games industry”…

Have your concept of “prodigy game dev” turned upside down within that timeframe or it is just a way to protect your fragile self from everyone who disagree with you or your ideas?