You can juggle around time, money, and effort spent learning though.
For example you can learn to PvE by reading a bunch of guides and ship fitting advice and watching videos and figure out what you’re doing to a fairly high degree. That takes a lot of focused effort though, and a good amount of time spent “learning” as opposed to “playing”. Personally I learn well that way, but that’s not the case for others.
You can also be taught by someone. Like you and your friends, or the fine folks at Eve Uni. This works for a lot of people. It’s more fun, still takes effort, but involves actually playing the game.
However, it is possible to do neither of these things and still learn. You just end up taking a lot more time, and potentially money. This is one of the reasons T1 ships are so cheap to insure relative to their reimbursement value. Someone can, in fact, spend very little of what they would consider “effort”, they’re not actively trying to learn, and still learn how the game works. That’s just going to be through trial and error on their part. They’re expending little “effort” to learn, but instead spending a lot of time and money instead.
I don’t think this is really true for most players.
What attracts someone to PvP is fundamentally different form what attracts someone to PvE or Industry.
I’ve known plenty of people over the years who do all of these activities for various different reasons, and plenty of people who do all of them at various points, but people tend to specialize toward the gameplay that appeals most to them. Even someone who does everything to some extent like I do tends to mainly do one thing over others.
Someone who finds industry boring isn’t going to suddenly find it exciting just because someone else quit the game though. That’s not going to fundamentally change the dynamics of that activity.
Industry is still going to be primarily about profits and macro strategy and moving things around.
PvE is still going to be about optimizing against a fixed opponent, manipulating the AI, and optimizing against the relatively static system as opposed to other players.
I’d also disagree with this. Those people make up a large portion of most corporations in the game. Those are the people who populate fleet fights instead of lead them or get shot up on roams.
Sure there would still be some distinction between different types and groups of players, but that’s just because you can divide groups along various lines more or less infinitely.
If there are so few people that roams become boring though then there won’t be anyone to shoot and things become boring for all those remaining. The key here isn’t that there would still be various divisions in the playerbase, the key is whether or not there are enough players to keep things interesting for everyone.
It might not be exciting, but you can bet your ass that if so many carebears leave the game that industry suddenly starts being worthwhile compared to other ways of making money, then we’ll start doing it (again).
Very few people can make money only through PvP (ganking excluded, being a PvP activity, but almost “passive” in nature). Most players who are primarily PvPers still need to grind out ISK somehow.
You have to read the whole exchange. Anderson defined casual players as players who are not willing to invest time to learn about the game. Such people don’t populate fleet fights because they’re not welcome in them. What kind of FC would want to have people who don’t know what button to press to make the guns shoot, in their fleet?
The players being referenced here, which Anderson for some unfathomable reason chooses to defend over all others, are the most bottom-feeding carebears who don’t bother to do a shred of research or preparation, get obliterated, and then proceed to complain on the forums and threaten to leave the game if they’re not given concessions.
Industry is and always has been one of the best ways of making money in this game, but to get a lot of money out of it you need to put a lot of time and money into it to get started. Also thanks to a lot of the top industrialists being recruited by large groups you’re basically never going to see them leave the game unless they get bored.
In short, this isn’t relevant to anything. It’s never going to happen.
Don’t forget people who fly with big alliances and more or less get all their ships comped. I’ve known more than a few dedicated Logi pilots who enjoy PvP as a Logi and pretty much never have to care about ISK for PvP because Logi are comped so often.
And yeah, I’ve met tons of different people doing Incursions or flying with Eve Uni, especially back when the coms were more open. There’s a difference between someone who quietly does missions or Incursions on an alt during structure bashes, or whenever they’re low on ISK, and someone who actively does PvE because they really enjoy it, even if they also PvP.
The goal for those players is still that the majority of their time be spent on PvP, and if there’s no one to shoot in PvP anymore then they’re more likely to leave the game than go to some other activity.
I did, in fact, read that part of your exchange. And responded to Anderson’s comment disagreeing with it as well, but that doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with your point as well. I spent a good few years in Eve Uni and let me tell you there are all sorts of people who learn in all sorts of ways and paces, and there’s a massive gulf between “doesn’t try to actively learn much” and “can’t find F1”. The latter doesn’t exist, the former can quite easily end up in a fleet fight because to do that they don’t need to know much beyond the basic controls of their ship. There’s no active learning required, everything will be explained by some FC at some point, the ship and fit will likely be provided as will the skill plan to train to it. Very little “effort” required.
Trust me, there’s more of these people in the game, active, and not causing anyone much trouble, than you’d think. I spent enough time teaching them why you don’t fit Shield and Armor mods on the same ship.
I just disagree with both of you because I think you’re both rushing to extremes here. Anderson is ascribing one set of characteristics to these people (and I think defending them so strongly precisely because you’re attacking them, and your view is not uncommon on these forums) and you’re rushing the opposite way assuming “no effort” means “can’t manage to undock without help”.
For my part, I think you’re both doing a pretty lousy job making yourselves clear and making a coherent point.
You’re ignoring the fact that PvP players have to fund their activities somehow. If they aren’t RMTing PLEX to pay for everything they’re going to have to engage in some form of industry or PvE (or have friends do it for them). And, for example, a PvP player who currently farms nullsec anomalies might be lured to mining and industry if it means doubling their ISK/hour. Or, if they aren’t lured in sufficient numbers production goes down, prices go up, and eventually the ISK/hour reward is sufficient to get people to do it.
Then what’s the problem? If these top industrial players are in EVE forever then why does it matter if the hordes of “MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE” idiots quit? You’re just proving the point that these players add nothing of value to EVE.
Don’t forget people who fly with big alliances and more or less get all their ships comped.
And where do you think those ships come from? PvP still requires industry to support it even if some of the PvP players have made arrangements where someone else does their industry for them. If those PvP players wish to continue doing PvP after a hypothetical loss of industry then someone in their alliance will have to fill in the missing production (and will have incentives to do so).
someone who actively does PvE because they really enjoy it
People like that really exist? I suppose they must, given the assorted masochism on display at your local BDSM club, but are they really playing EVE in sufficient numbers to be worth discussing?
The goal for those players is still that the majority of their time be spent on PvP, and if there’s no one to shoot in PvP anymore then they’re more likely to leave the game than go to some other activity.
Why are we discussing the possibility of not having anyone to shoot in PvP? The low-effort “casual” players almost always play the game in a way that avoids PvP as much as possible. If they all quit some of the low-effort gankers might be disappointed that there aren’t enough day-old mining frigates to kill but hardly anyone else will notice.
Should people try to change the rules of eve? Sandbox is a game where there is the box (the rules) and you do everything you can do in it abiding to the rules. Now… are we allowed to complain about changes to CCP, given the fact that this is a sandbox?
If no, we’ve all been there complaining about the new filaments. So probably yes. CCP makes the rules, and we can ask for a change.
Now, we can stop using the debated words of “casual” and “care bear”. We can split the player population into 3 kinds of people: people who find PVP (roamers), people who don’t find PVP but accepts it (miners who gf), and people who do not accept PVP at all, either by not playing eve or quitting and complaining.
The argument against OP is that it will get the people who do not accept PVP at all away from the game. So do we want these people in the game? I like comparing EvE to Darksouls. If people think it’s too hard and ragequit, then ask for a refund, should From Software make it easy?
Making all corps war eligible, I have to agree, is a little too extreme. But at the same time, the current war mechanics are extremely exploitable. While I do not have a better wardec mechanic to recommend at the time, it does need a revamp.
This was pointed out by many people at the time, but CCP just went with another bandaid, nerfing wars yet again. The meta shifted, new loopholes were adapted to, and predictably less wars and activity took place in highsec.
Absolutely it should be possible to have a corp that is immune to wars. But that should come with trade-offs. A social corp is basically a chat channel, and players should be at no more risk than if in the NPC corp. But the benefits of being in a corp should come with trade-offs, and as you start using more complex, and especially the more lucrative, aspects of corp tools, you should be at more risk.
But that’s not what we got. Basically was were completely neutered with massive dodge loopholes created, and made even more difficult to start. And while maybe easier than redesigning the system from the ground up, also had no apparent effect on highsec activity or newbro retention as so many promised.
I always find it amazing that CCP falls into the same trap, over and over again, despite the fact even their “studies” point to the fact that a safer game isn’t a more active game. I mean, they do seem to have learned that lesson when it comes to some of their efforts lately, but I guess the lure of the “easy” fix is pretty great when you have limited resources and a huge backlog of game systems that could use your attention.
This is a formal request that @Anderson_Geten stop posting in this thread. You are not welcome to participate with my content, all you do is spam the forum with pedantic endless arguments to nowhere. Nobody likes you. Nobody wants you here. Nobody cares what you think. Go away nerd. Just get yourself on out!
My only point has been, that those people are important to the game and saying “good riddance” because in HS they can’t accept to be forced upon PVP was not an healthy state for the game.
People claiming that casual players (as in, don’t want to invest time learning how to play) are an acceptable loss in Eve, are wrong.
Those are the people that were removed by the old wardec, therefore the modification of wardec to prevent wardecs from removing them was a good thing.
By the simple fact that they complain about it, you can easily deduce that NO they did not choose this.
People cannot farm as easily as they could before, this is a good thing. The issue more than anything else is that looking after a structure is such a pain and the benefits of that structure is such that you have no real reason to do it that the pool of available prey is limited in hisec and getting smaller. Consequences indeed…
The first thing that CCP needs to do is stop doing a one size fits all approach to hisec structures based on nullsec play, if you can ban certain weapons systems and have differing timers then go the whole hog and make it so the more casual players in hisec can defend them with a system that we had at the start of structures. Not the system that is designed for nullsec.
If you CCP wants to continue to make it so easy to attack structures owned by casual players then add fighters to all structures so they are not so easy to murder.
Also buff the benefits that rigs give in hisec so there is real value in having indy structures so more people decide it is worth doing.
I am watching as less and less people have structures, still it may result in some big hisec groups developing that have a hardened group of PvP players defending it. PIRAT died because of the resist nerfs and that some people decided to take out their bling fleets with massed Tornado’s. That this developed is proof that the change made by CCP worked.
I suggest that eventually there will be a number of strong structure owning groups that will have hardened defences and a mass of allies that will come in and support those structures, it will be real combat and all the farmers will ignore that content as it is too risky and they will moan on the forums, like Aiko…
