Ok, I apologize. I was clearly mistaken. You’re not a madman.
You’re a moron.
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Some of the specificity in elements of your position distract from an important point you seem to probe throughout, but never explicitly address; that treatment of those subject to a Holder is indicative less of their attitude on slavery than their views on holding.
At its most simplistic, the measure of a good Holder is to leave their holding better than they found it. Open as that is to interpretation, the foundation of any holding is its faithful— there is no surer way to better it than to elevate and enable those among them who best serve it.
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I think you are clearly mistaken about a great many things; more specifically about which thread your posting in - perhaps you should look at that…
I’m posting in the thread where you claimed to be an immortal god. So, madman or moron, which you are might be up for debate, but you’re definitely in one of those two.
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I am immortal as long as i do not leave my pod.
Like I said:
You’re not immortal. You’re disposable. When you die, they’ll decant another Lugburz and tell him he’s you, and he’ll be dumb enough to believe it, just like you’re dumb enough to believe you’re a continuation, not a copy.
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02:12
Wow, so you’re really that dumb? Do you believe everything the salespeople put in their marketing campaigns?
You’re two days old. The guy who claimed to be ‘an immortal capsuleer, a ‘god among men’’ died in Vale to four guys from Forsaken Empire. When his pod cracked, it fried his brain to create a detailed scan of information about the state of that brain. Then your brain was flash-grown in a vat, with somewhere between half a second and a few seconds of lag time between those two events.
There’s no actual continuity of experience covering that window of time. He died, and they printed out a new version, like replacing a flyer someone crumpled up and threw away.
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Honestly, i would like a… less ambiguous way of freeing the slaves I’ve captured from the Amarrians. I once tried to give a small group their own corvette and a supply of food, only to receive an automatic notification a few days later when a group of triglavians caught them and killed them. I suppose it’s really my fault, i shouldnt have expected them to know how to operate and navigate a spacecraft. I feel guilty.
In any case, they deserve to be the masters of their own destiny AS ANY HUMAN SHOULD. I really wish I had a confirmation that they were PHYSICALLY INTACT AND ALIVE before I release them from my hangar bay. I dont even care if i get a bounty or a pat on the back from the Minmatar, or if it benefits me in any way, hell i’ll even pay good isk to make sure they’re provided for after all they’ve suffered!
Until CONCORD or DED or whoever makes it possible to do this, i do enjoy setting 300 slaves loose in a hangar with a dozen of their former captors, and i sometimes bring them along with me to lowsec deadspace pockets so they can cheer me on as i space Amarrian slavers, and set my drones and blasters to melt their bones as they gasp pathetically for their last breaths. Serves the bastards right. There’s an Old Earth hymnal we listen to during these parties, it’s called “John Brown’s Body.” Makes for a great sing-along.
But it’s not really a long term solution.
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From my father, I have inherited a nominal stock of 1000, and for me, having those people in my care means first and foremost bringing them to God and thus to the true freedom that lies within conscious obedience to God. As I am a capsuleer, any financial reasons that might exist in bigger holdings are put aside; the free, paid employees I deal with vastly outnumber the slaves, most of which are settled planetside around my father’s estate.
The people in the holding live in clean, humane conditions approximately on par with those of lower tier Caldari corporate employees. Separate rooms are provided for the individuals over 16 and three-room modules are provided for registered families. I abhor the use of TCMCs and consider every case of resorting to those (had to on a few feisty teenagers) as my personal loss.
As a Holder, I judge my stock for the few crimes they ever commit according to the Scripture, though, I must admit, seen through rather merciful eyes. Punishment mostly involves social isolation, relegation to menial work, or both. For the hard cases, that might also involve TCMCs, as with those violent teens. I have never executed, or ordered a corporal punishment to be applied to a person.
The ultimate goal is the manumission, usually accompanied by an offer to take a paid position in my employ, now as a commoner. Most freedmen agree to this, though a few chose to leave.
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Death and sacrifice in the name of saving others is noble, brave even, however what you do makes you even worse a monster than the ones who enslaved them in the first place. You have killed more slaves than many of the holders and Amarrian slavers. You are not freeing our people, you are murdering them.
Should I see you in space, I hope you will be prepared, because should you fail, I will be surrendering you to the same fate of those you have murdered.
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I don’t give a damn who you are, you don’t have the right to enslave other people. I don’t care about your God. Your God means nothing to me. I care about my people having freedom. Living as a slave no matter how you present it, is not freedom. I’d rather die hungry than to eat as an slave.
Furthermore, who are you that a God would come to you personally and say it’s okay to own human bodies? Do you think yourself to be so important? An all-powerful God would elaborate his plans to you? ■■■■■■■■. Also, please, you must show me where your God explicitly says that its okay to own people and make them slaves. There is no God. There is New Eden, and the people that inhabit it that like to make up ■■■■ to justify their state of being.
Stop trying to justify this practice… A “Good” holder? There is no such thing as a Good Holder. If you own people you are an evil bastard and you deserve to die a million deaths. To all of you blaming being a holder on your “God”, How do you know what your “God” wants?
Do you speak for this God? If so can you ask him if it’s okay for us to enslave YOU for a little while? Let you see how it feels to have everything taken away from you. Let you see what it feels like to live under the microscope of false illusions sold to you like “Good” or “Holy”
Pray to your God you never cross paths with someone like me or my associates, because trust me we hate you just as much as you hate us. We are actively looking for holders.
I want to “talk” about your God.
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Zakir,
I am of no means a scholar on this subject. It is simply the ideas of a borderlands yokel that is presented and not of someone steeped fully with knowledge.
I would argue that slavery serves as a path of redemption from sin. One would only have to look at the Ammatar and see the amazing things that have been happening in the Mandate. What amazing times we live in. As the faithful that first converted did not serve many generations but the ones before have spent more. This is the debt of sin or inheritable sin that many people speak of.
The topic of inheritable sin is hotly debated on both sides. So I do not wish to put my foot one way or another because of the lack of knowledge on the subject. However, I can try to help push the conversation along.
In my home Slavery is legal. As we are an extension of the Amarr Empire. In Providence we are considered a very Conservative Militancy in regards to political leanings.
Our Margrave has given territories over to other Capsuleers and in regards have created a series of Holders and sub-holders unique to the region but in some ways similar to the Empire. Slavery in Providence mind you is different than Slavery in the Empire proper. On exactly who owns slaves is hotly debated.
In some regards some people outside the borderlands believe that only our Lord Margrave should own slaves. As his status allows. While he has extended certain rights and privilege’s of holder status in our region.
In Providence a freedom of slaves can come easier than in the Empire depending on the holder in control of the slave or it could be more generational. It is largely up to the holder in control. So it can be more cloudy in that regards.
Your question has proved a proper point. That maybe Providence needs to look at its laws in regards to slavery and insure we are keeping to the Empire’s standards. I myself am of ownership of slaves. I roughly own over 3100. This does not include my household staff. I was awarded the 3000 after Thebeka incidents. I was given the household staff much later.
Finally the last 100 were picked up here and there for hardship cases. As each holder holds a different level of care than others. This is also something that can be highly debated. While some Slave owners in the Empire are brutal and dare I say, forgive me if I will truly ungodly and unbecoming of someone of the faith in how they treat slaves.
A slave owner has the inherent responsibility to foster the faith in the slave and see growth not just in health but in faith. The methods of “gaining that faith” is very much debated. Such is the loosely terms and conditions of slavery.
In regards, god wants us all to serve. We are all slaves to our position in life. As a holder is to their duties, as a noble is to theirs, as craftsman, soldiers, pilots, and slaves. We all have duties and must humble ourselves before god.
I argue that a slave may be able to come to god faster than someone of more elevated positions. Please listen and be careful as I don’t wish to misunderstand. When stripped of all outside influences and when everything is laid bare, a person is closest to god.
Which is why I wake and go to sleep with only one task. How may I best serve my god and Empire today. I do not question for ours is not a position to question gods plan. However, it is our duty to serve. We are all slaves to our duty. A person must not think of themselves so high and so elevated that they are beyond the responsibilities they owe god and his chosen representative in this world which is the Empress.
So while I by no means have provided any real facts for you I believe I have given you an idea to the best of my ability. That to live is to serve regardless of station. That we each have a duty according to gods plan. That we all must come to god for forgiveness of sin. Some must seek redress from the sins of their forbears by being better.
That slavery varies widely according to political ideological stances and of course that to question this is going against Gods plan. The more we question the divine wisdom of god the further from the path we tread into sin. We walk in faith and not by sight.
I ask that you accept this foolish attempt to provide some answers for what you seek.
Amarr Victor,
For God and Empire,
Ave Providence,
Paladin Warden Kyle Saltz
Hand of the Margrave
Ambassador to the 24th Imperial Crusade.
This is quite the heated discussion. Many of the Holders in this thread seem to truly believe they are doing a great service, both to their God and to those under their control. In some respects, I would be unsurprised to see that the general quality of life of these slaves does indeed exceed what one might see on several thousand other worlds.
I must disagree on some key factors.
First, that the Amarr are any more or less God’s people than any other people.
Secondly, that there is any benefit to these slaves’ lives that could not be achieved by allowing them their free will and offering these things in a fair exchange of goods and service.
And third, that all Holders do indeed have the best interests of their slaves in mind.
While everyone is different, we all share the same building blocks of life. Even the Jove, shrouded in mystery and tragedy, still have the same basic genetic code. Capsuleers and baseliners all make decisions both destructive and constructive. In truth, there is no real difference between any of us except that which we have learned or constructed ourselves.
As to the person insisting that capsuleers are not the same being but one brainwashed to believe they are; is there truly any difference? The decisions are the same, the means available, the beliefs and actions. Whether I am the same person or one in a line of many exactly like me, still I keep fighting for the same things.
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Despite citing key disagreements, your position is remarkably similar to that illuminated in The Book of Trials, which states that the glory of our faith is inherent to all created by the Divine, going on in the same passage to glorify those who take the Light into their heart, and act in the Light’s name.
You go on to assert that any benefit that can be conferred upon a slave would be available to one manumitted, substantively that’s true; but we would reject both the idea that a slave lacks free will, and the notion that transactional employment is by nature any more moral.
A good Holder has the best interests of their Holding foremost in their mind, in most cases the more prosperous a Holding, the better served its people. What I think you are referring to though is not proper governance by which the whole are prioritized over the individual, but venality among those in power; something which has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with human weakness.
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So, like, if you can just build people as you want them. . . I mean, if that’s a thing, why not just build not slaves? Clone from True Amarrians, or whatever? Wouldn’t it be better to build proper faithful instead of people who might someday, I dunno, serve as the template for free clones, in a few centuries? You’ve already got faithful stock.
Weird stuff, man.
With free will, and transactional employment, one would be free to leave the situations where governance is not benevolent, and would flock to employers whose governance is benevolent. Your slaves do not have this option, nor the opportunity to strike out on their own and take independent action.
Transactional employment alone is not any more moral than slavery in the cases where the nature of the transaction is so heavily biased to the employer that there is essentially no choice, a situation that can be found across all Four Empires.
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Not every Holder owns slaves. There are many of us who have inherited Holdings that have been in our families for far too long, and have set free those entrusted into our care.
Slavery is savagely cruel no matter the circumstances or the justifications.
There are many of us who wish to see a better Amarr, one free of such primitive practices.
-Lady Shalee Lianne Cerra
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Ave Lady Shalee.
Slavery is the past and not the future of the Empire.
Foreign influence is rife for all to see concerning an aspect of our most sacred of Divine duties.
Hmpf.
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