Of course you are right. I’m all for you voicing your opinion. I was just throwing you my perspective 
you’re on KM’s killing small stuff with a cap in your fleet, sometimes a couple of caps.
so it’s ok when you do it but not when others do it to you. 
Because it is a video game
/thread
Hummm, sounds like a good plan to visit that space, I think I’ll send a peace envoy with gifts for the first cap that greets me.
No it isnt.
Its their choice.
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Its both actually.
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Semantically, no.
But actually, yes.
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Obviously it wasnt all for a confessor. Look at the related kills. It was a busted op. Either they were hoping for an escalation or there was something else going on.
It “doesn’t work” with people who spent too much time in echochambers of their own opinion online. Yes, there are people or cases where no dependable group is hurt despite someone claiming so. In this case it does not not work, it’s simply wrong and can be called out like that.
Your “doesn’t work” sounds like whenever a weak group is mentioned you feel like someone is trying to trick you…into having a heart. EVE and real life are different. In the game it’s quite okay to be ruthless, in real life it’s not.
In legimate real-life cases “but the children” translates into: “I should murder you for endangering my children, but we’re civilized folks now and we’ll talk it out instead”.
People who don’t have the sense that children need protection, elderly need special care and deserve our respect for working their ass off for us - yes, those people do exist. Are they generally respected? No. Do they bring anything useful into the world? Rarely. They’re usually the outcome of hurt boys talking to other hurt boys about how it’s much better to hate everybody else than risking to care for someone. As the weakest of the weak, this group of course also deserves some protection
Anyhow, in EVE things are different, but there are still good reasons to think about the current game mechanics. EVE should not be easy for anyone, new or old. Why? To keep it interesting, to keep it fun. I do think this has been lost a bit, partly due to mechanics, partly due to player behaviour as @Zachri pointed out in another thread. It’s not about protecting new players from the inevitable doom, it’s about making it more exciting for everybody. Hard-tackling a single subcap with an Arazu (possibly resebo’d) after a gatejump and throwing a bunch of Carriers on top of it, isn’t fun for either side.
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That is somewhat incorrect. Battleships are in a need of a lot of love right now. The way the balance line (or graph if you wanna call it) works out, is that 2-3 frigates can comfortably kill a cruiser, by themselves with no other support. 2-3 cruisers can comfortably kill a battleship, by themselves. Actually 1 cruiser can comfortably kill a battleship, even a blinged one, if the cruiser itself is properly fit, for example I have a 1350-1400 DPS Tengu, but those are exceptions and too expensive for average engagements.
So to continue, 2-3 T2 fit cruisers kill a battleship, comfortably. Sometimes they can lose, but again, those are exceptions, not averages. 5-6 frigates, kill a battleship comfortably, been tehre done that plenty of times, yea we would lose 2 of them during engagement, but still. And this follows the balance curve.
But… 2-3 Battleships can not comfortably kill a carrier. This is the problem, they should. 3 battleships, or 2 dreds, should kill a carrier vast majority of the time, all by themselves, but they can’t. That is the balance problem. There is this huge vertical jump in the balance curve, and it is gigantic. Its a gap.
And no, I’m definetly not saying you should kill a carrier with a single battleship just cause some cruisers can kill battleships solo, that just means that particular cruiser is freagin broken. But I am saying that a small group of battleships should, specifically about 3 of them. Maybe even 2 if they’re blinged and the carrier is not. By themselves, just like the cruisers do to battleships.
So either battleships need a lot of love or caps need a nerf, or tehre needs to be another line of ships available for the job. Perhaps another line of T2 battleships dedicated for it, or even T3s, or something, I don’t know. Just the balance gap needs to be on some angle, not straight up like an impassible cliff.
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oh I completely agree that battleships are in need of some love. maybe not quite as much of a buff as you suggest but certainly in need of some love.
and there is already a t2 line of battleships that would work just fine as cap killers, marauders. problem with t2 lines vs standard ships is a) insurance is shit, and b) its much easier to farm minerals in insane quantities than it is to farm moon-goo.
capitals being as easy to attain as they are now is entirely because of the players, they are common because we want to use them, so lots of people make them, because lots of people buy them. this keeps the price almost criminally low. (seriously, profit margins on a dread or a carrier are about the same or even worse than the profit margins on a battleship)
but even in the state of needing some love like they are now, you still see them used, and they still make a difference on the field even when there are capitals in play. my point wasn’t if things are perfectly balanced or not, but that there will always be a bigger fish, and just because capitals will generally wipe the floor with battleships, doesn’t automatically mean that they are in need of a nerf, anymore than a battleship cleaning up a bunch of cruisers doesn’t mean that they need a nerf.
Marauders do not work out in practice unfortunately. Maybe they ought to, to do so, they would also need some sort of a buff. And you’re right about the costs too. I just looked at that dred kill posted above, only 2.5 bil total, thats half of what a good abyssal fit Gila costs. It should cost like 20-30 bil, Seriously, just W T F ? Where is the balance ? Costs wise its half assed backwards.
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comparing a dread to an abyssal gila isn’t really a fair comparison, because gila’s can’t be mass-produced the same way dreads can, everything I need to build and fit a dread I can get BPO’s for. once I start churning out copies, the only real limiting factor on how many I can make per month (Aside from how many buyers I have obvs) is how much RNJesus smiles on me for t2 invention runs for the modules. and even that can be mitigated by just getting another bpo to make more copies and add another character for more invention attempts.
Gilas on the other hand only come from BPC’s, which makes them an inherently limited commodity, doesn’t matter how many characters I have, or how many buyers are lined up. there are only so many gila bpc’s in jita, and I will only be able to farm so many of them myself or even with help. makes it far harder to scale up.
and yeah, marauders where abit of a fail in the anti-cap battleship role that I think they where originally intended for. they worked very briefly, back when capitals where still 5-10 times the cost they are today. but t2 manufacture is a good bit more involved than capital manufacturing is, especially if you want to make the big bucks (but quite a bit more profitable) and its harder to scale quite the same way t1 manufacturing can, so the prices are never gonna drop the same way.
overall though, I think marauders have managed to find a role for themselves in PVE and solo vs small gang pvp so i’m okay with the position they are in.
as far as the “cap killer role” honestly, dreadnoughts fill it quite well now. an anti-cap dread costs about as much as a marauder. insures better, and can’t do a hell of a lot against subcaps. HAW dreads do complicate that a little bit, but I for one think that ships have already become too single focused and cookie cutter as it is, so i will never advocate for taking utility away from a ship that exists, just to create another ship that can ONLY do the one thing you took away.
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Then compare a Carrier to a Marauder. Carriers are cheaper than marauders.
Carriers are anti-subcap and don’t do well in cap vs cap fights.
Another way to look at it. What sort of anti-capital ship should there be (say if we turned marauder into anti-cap) that doesn’t very quickly just start looking like a dread or a bomber
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Well the point me saying that wasn’t if it was cap or sub cap oriented. More so that a Battleship is more expensive than a carrier.
A t2 battleship yes. But t2 production is actually more complex that capital production.
Besides, cost is mostly determined by players. Capitals sell for so little due to massive supply compared to demand. The margins on carriers specifically is so small that % wise some frigates beat them out.
They are cheap because they are popular.
I mean to increase the value of caps(make them “less” popular), wouldn’t they just need to increase the mats needed to produce? But then this would start on the economy of eve which could be bad.
lots of caps are already sold at or under raw material cost as is. and their material requirements are considerably higher. ccp has said several times that raw material cost is not something that they look at as being a good way to try and force balance, because it has historically not worked.
lets compare for example an abaddon vs a nidhoggur (simply because abaddon is one of the more common battleships and it was first on my production list)
nidhoggur requires roughly 6x as much material to build (little more little less depending on the specific mineral) with the finished hull costing about 8x as much as an abaddon… seems reasonable, until you remember everything else that goes into it. building capitals requires extra skill training, while an abaddon can be built by a day 1 character. an abaddon can also be pumped out in ~3 hours in any area of space, while a nidhoggur takes 12 days to assemble (not even counting the time it takes to build the components) and has to be done low or null.
and once you go further into the blueprints required an abaddon only requires 1 BPO at ~1.8b ish (just going off memory for that, but I think its in that ballpark) that can be researched to ME10 in about 5 months.
a nidhoggur on the other hand requires a ship bpo at ~1.2b that takes nearly 9 months just to bring up to ME 9 and almost 2 years if your insane enough to aim for ME10, and on top of that you also need 12 cap component BPO’s that average out to around 1 bil a piece and take around 5 months to get to ME10.
so as you can see, beyond the raw material cost, the overall investment, time and skills required are far FAR higher. time in particular by several orders of magnitude. and yet, despite all that they are still relatively speaking for what they are, one of the cheapest ships at the game. which says that their price is that low because players want it that low… why should ccp meddle in that?
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Fair enough lol. I’ve never produced capitals.