Well it’s a variable of how strong something is. I mean if titans were 10 isk you wouldn’t really see anything else.
Throughout the entire history of Eve nobody ever complained that capships were too cheap. What happened was, ways were added for sov nullsec to make more ISK than they previously could (rorqual changes, anomaly spawns, etc). I’m not saying I’m for or against the changes, I’m just saying that is what changed. So, now you know what your issue really should be (changes that made nullsec richer). I’d recommend changing your ‘beef’ from ‘waaaah! capships!’ to ‘sov nullsec gets too much free ISK and goodies.’ So chime in here: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2018/08/27/there-is-no-limit-to-presstitute-hypocrisy/
I don’t get why you gotta say wah like I’m crying about it lol it’s just the way it is and I think they’re too cheap. I’m not running into capitals every day and coming to the forums to vent my frustrations, this is just my observation based on what I’ve seen on paper . My problem is regardless of the way things came to be, the fact is they are being produced at such efficiency, and at such a rate that they don’t really feel like they are difficult enough to replace for what they can do.
However I do completely agree that sov null is broken for many many reasons.
Most criticisms of capships being too cheap are misguided.
I’ve been playing Eve for years. Yet I just bought my first capship yesterday. It cost over a billion ISK, but it isn’t as if I just have billions of ISK lying around at my disposal, and most players probably don’t. Guess what… I still haven’t used the capship yet, or even undocked it, because it is in hostile space, and I have no support. The truth is, I may never be able to use it. I might just have to turn around and re-sell it.
It took over 1 year of straight skilling to even be able to sit in this thing (which I still haven’t done yet). So, a year of straight skilling to do something I still haven’t done and may never be able to do. Meanwhile my buddies skilled-up all kinds of things and are flying around in sabres, interceptors, bombers, strategic cruisers, heavy assault cruisers, etc. - none of which I can fly because instead of skilling for those things, I skilled for a capship.
Anyway, if you make these things more expensive, then only the super-rich guys can own and fly them. Then, the people who already hate capships will hate them even more. Personally, I’d like capships to be within reach of the average player if he wants to dedicate himself to getting into them. I did that, and still haven’t been able to fly one yet, so I don’t know how much more difficult you want to make them to get into.
I completely agree with the fact that they should be accessible. Their price tags and skill requirements are okay imo it’s just the insurance I’ve got a problem with.
‘Normal’ capship insurance is in line with the existing insurance mechanic. The mechanic is, pirate ships, faction ships, and tech ii/iii ships get crap insurance. ‘Normal’ ships get good insurance.
There are pirate capships (look them up), and they get crap insurance.
Well, nope - all games, and actually even all RL weapons/tactics, have counters - do well at one task and fail at another (compared to something else). There is no general “good at everything” tank, ship, airplane, you name it. Never was. There is always something that defeats it more often than not. But I do agree hard counters are often a problem in game design though. Infantry isn’t THAT feeble against archers or THAT strong against a charge of heavy cavalry, and that tank isn’t going to steamroll tons of infantry unless they have AT weapons, when it dies instantly.
Anyway, back to EVE and the thread.
Let’s say we have a frigate, cruiser, BS and a capship, perhaps a dread. All T1 ships with a T1 fit. Frigate is going to cost you about 1M after insurance. Cruiser might be 10M. BS would be 100M, and a cap ship would be about 1B. Give or take some, doesn’t matter that much. It takes about 3 frigates to kill a cruiser. 3 cruisers to get a BS. But >3 BS to kill a cap ship, while a titan or super cannot be even tackled by 3 caps.
Furthermore, a lone cruiser in a frig gang might die first because it is a slower and larger target. A lone carrier/dread in a BS gang will die after all the other ships die/flee.
So, I believe capitals are too strong right now. On the other hand, they require crazy amount of skilling.
The only semi-realistic fix I see would be to bring capitals in line with the usual frig-cruiser-BS progression. So, nerf their damage and tank, but also make them easier to fly (price seems to be in line with the general progression already). These ships should be just another chapter, not the radical shift they are. This would extend to the titan/super. Obviously you would require all that jumping, DD, fighters and whatnot to properly use these ships, but you could theoretically sit in one very fast, like you do in a BS.
So, a drone BS might have carrier as the natural progression and the super as the step after that. A gun BS would have dread, followed by a titan. Preferably with carriers able to apply good damage to cruiser (light fighters V1) and BS (light fighters V2), dreads and supers would apply damage to BS (anti-subcap guns and heavy fighters V1) and capitals (anti-cap guns, heavy fighters V2), and titans should be limited to hitting capitals (anti-cap guns and the single-target DD).
I hear this all the time. The ‘3 frigs kill cruiser, 3 cruisers kill BS, but the pattern breaks with capships’ spiel. I’m not impressed with the argument. I see no need for that pattern to hold with everything, it isn’t chiseled in stone, and big expensive skill-intensive endgame ships with the word ‘capital’ in them seems to be a fine place to break the pattern.
Would you want a death star be able to be killed by 3 x-wings? Why do you want wimpy capital ships? I’m convinced that people have irrational or unfair reasons for it - “I like to fly small ships so I want to nerf the stuff I don’t fly,” or “I don’t want to put forth the time and skilling necessary to sit in one, so nerf them since I won’t be sitting in one,” or “I don’t ever want to pay that much for one, so nerf them since I won’t be sitting in one,” or “one killed me in a hot-drop one time, and I lost an expensive ship, so F**K those things, nerf them!” etc. etc. etc.
The problem is exactly “endgame ships”. You (and likely CCP too given their balance) consider a carrier to be more of an endgame ship than say a drone BS and probably the titan to be the pinnacle of all ships and that it should obviously easily eliminate anything and everything else even solo.
While I see all that as a yet another ship. Frigate is as endgame as a cruiser and as a BS - I like that part. Only the capitals are “more endgame” for some reason I don’t know and likely won’t appreciate either.
“Endgame” ships should become more like “Endme” ships. Easily countered, having weak spot that is hard to defend.
Fine. If there is no such thing as ‘endgame anything’ then eliminate all skills - you automatically have the skill to do anything in game. Eliminate all price discrepancies - a cheap T1 Frigate costs as much as a Titan. Not only that, the Titan should be the same as a Frigate, just a different skin. For that matter, eliminate T2 and faction versions of modules and drones. Everything should be standard vanilla.
Rorquals shouldn’t be better than Ventures, so either get rid of them, or make them the same ship with a different skin.
Etc.
Except when using the term endgame, EVE has no endgame. What he is saying is that an “end game” ship is whatever you enjoy flying the most. As such, all ships should be balanced and not become a “one size fits all” kind of ship, which is what capitals have become.
Want to make dank ticks? PVE grind in a carrier/super/titan (boson ratting)
Want to kill that pesky subcap gang? Drop some carriers/dreads/supers/titans on them so we can go back to krabbing. They will all apply to those subcaps and as theyre a roaming gang, its highly unlikely they will even fight back in anyway to present a threat.
Want to munch rocks afk? Fly a rorq. Get attacked? I’ll light my cyno and go into PANIC for 5min of invuln while my other capitals cyno in (see above) and then put my 5b in excavators into a mobile depot so im barely risking anything. Oh, and also my mining ship has 120km rep range and 1100dps drones, just because. Oh, im out of panic now? Time to use CASB fits to tank 50-80k dps (haha, hope you brought a 80-120 man fleet with you).
Capitals (carriers/supers/fighters) need an application nerf, Titans should not be able to fit HAW guns either, XL only.
Alternatively, there needs to be a better dynamic of rock, paper scissors between subs and caps. Just like battleships can die to a small gang of frigates, an unsupported capital should die to a small gang of subcaps without needing to use the exact same comp everytime (100mn+ECM). However, its hard to break out of that comp when capitals apply so well to anything outside of it.
Also, im aware capitals have died to things outside of what i discuss. ■■■■ fit capitals need not apply as a point of discussion. Well fit/piloted pirate battleship can still die to a group of well fit and piloted frigates without needing super specific comps.
Fine, I’m tired of arguing about it. Nerf capitals. There’s other games I can be playing.
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