How I feel about EVE right now

You may be more right than you realise.

I myself was pushing for more interesting pve 5 years ago or so. But when i did i thought it would take a couple years, i thought it would be ‘quick wins’. Not the 5-6 years we’ve seen. I knew back then that any pve that ccp made would be like pve in any game. It would be clocked and farmed by players in no time. So there wasn’t much value in spending so much effort on it and trying to keep pve players endlessly appeased. They always move on to the next game after a while.

I also didn’t expect them to gut hi-sec pvp at the same time.

1 Like

Everybody moves. Rivers flow. Time passes. But eventually people come back to see what changed.

The thing with seeing bigger picture is also about how the game could be seen from outside to potential player and what that player expects from space game with spaceships and avatars. Player that probably already tried WoW, Star Trek, GTA Online, WoT or other multiplayer, but also single player games. Maybe heard about Star Citizen and wonders if he could play something similar for free right now. There are players that doesnt play fantasy genre exclusively, or Sci-fi. Players try new things all the time.

Whats hopefull, the shape of game is still being decided, even after all those years. :thinking:
Whats worse can be better.

They only need to keep the good things intact.

More misinterpreted data you’ve never understood. Repeating it every chance you get won’t make it true.

There is also nothing to prove that players ‘stick around’ for the PvP. PvP is a minority activity in EVE, always has been. The ‘PvP wannabe’ players freaked out when Crimewatch came along and ‘forced’ them to have ‘criminal’ flags that allowed players other than their weak target to PvP them.

Most of the PvPers in EVE have never been about PvP… they’ve been about trying to make themselves feel badass by winning easy fights, and validate their importance by getting another person upset.

The PvP died because it was mostly designed for crap PvPers who were catering to their own emotional issues. The PvE died because it was never good in the first place. EVE is dying (slowly but surely) because CCP never learned how to design actually decent game mechanics that support the way they want the game to work.

It’s not about ganking, it’s not about ‘nerfs to PvP’, it’s not about “today’s players just don’t have the balls of the players from the good ol’ days”, it’s not even about needing better or more PvE… it’s about poor game design eventually wrecking the game once all the flaws become too much to ignore.

6 Likes

But from amount of ratting done right now, I think its more alive than ever. :thinking:
Lots of explorers too.

Abot PvP part I agree, but its like that in every game. Relatively small number of players are good PvPers that want to PvP equally good players, the rest is just happy getting easy kills, not challenge that can overwhelm and they would have to adapt instead of rage quitting.

2 Likes

Yeah, you know why everyone pvp’s…and all their mental inadequacies. :+1:

You guys are missing ‘the big picture’ as you would put it.

Grouping together to do pve is ok for an hour or two, but after that it gets boring. You are repeating the same actions in the same ships over and over again. It’s fine as means to an end (making money). But it is not engaging after a while. In any game. Clearly.

Grouping together to hunt other players is a whole different kettle of fish. It’s much less repetitive. Using the same tactics will actually end up getting you killed. Not paying attention will get you killed. Multi-boxing too much will get you killed. Your opponent is far more aware than any npc, they can spot you coming and adapt to counter you. It is hard to describe how much more everyone is involved when it comes to pvp.

Google ‘pvp shakes’ and see how often eve online comes up.

It’s just telling that the people knocking it with knee jerk reactions and making all the claims without supporting evidence are the ones who don’t do it themselves…

Get away from the mentality of ‘good pvp’. Read the 8 rules of eve again.

As far as player engagement and retention goes. It works! And then some.

Sorry, but stating your opinion again for the n’th time doesn’t make it a fact. As for ‘supporting evidence’ I can’t recall you hardly ever coming out with anything but stating your own opinions endlessly. Feel free to toss in anything factual you’ve got here on how the PvP in EVE helps retain players.

Yes, PvP is more interesting and engaging than the PvE in EVE (in most cases). That said, it’s never been interesting or engaging enough in EVE to equate to much more than a sideline activity some people do. I suspect PI probably has as many people participating as PvP does.

People normally get ‘pvp shakes’ not because it’s an exciting or thrilling activity, but because there is a risk of meaningful loss. People are programmed to get hyper when they are in a situation where a significant loss may occur. That doesn’t mean the PvP is interesting, well designed, or even fun. It only means something more than a ‘respawn’ is at risk. (People even get combat-shakes in games where the primary ‘loss’ effect is a respawn, btw - it’s not that significant a thing.)

You also make the typical mistake that because someone who owns literally dozens of characters is posting on one of them, that they don’t and have never PvPed on any of them. If that’s your assumption I’d have to say your own zkillboard says you’re a crap PvPer who’s had a tiny amount of PvP experience spread across the last 10 years, none of it very recent. And many of the ‘argue for PvP’ crowd have even worse zkillboards. (Take a look at Salt Foambreaker, for instance)

Try responding to people’s points, with actual facts, rather than using your opinions as gospel and making ad hominem attacks, and your arguments will go over a lot better.

Should PvP be more common, more interesting, more engaging and more supported in EVE? Certainly. Should EVE do a better job of directing players into the PvP activities and teaching them that ships are replaceable tools? Obviously. Does EVE do these things? No.

If CCP wants EVE to attract and retain players based on its’ PvP model, they need to make significant changes so that PvP is more interesting to more players. Not just the weaksauce wannabes who need to hunt easy targets in safe space to get their jollies.

3 Likes

Are you saying this is a lie?

Can you show something that says otherwise?

What about the wardec nerfs that were made to stop their ‘stark’ effects on player retention? That worked didn’t it!

Funny how you focus on me and not this:

You always so biased?

If ccp nerfed level4 missions such that they paid 1isk a day, how much would people partake in that?

Yeah repeated nerfs to pvp have had an effect on it’s participation. Maybe we should stop nerfing it.

Uh huh. So you’re saying you’re a regular wardeccer are you? Do you suicide gank? What hi-sec pvp do you do? Are you part of the:

How about you @Nana_Skalski? You have emotional issues? Or are you:

Or how about you @WorstPilotEver? You must be a solo pvp guru right?

Sure, I made an ‘assumption’. What a typical mistake of mine. :upside_down_face:

I am, but when it comes to your opinions, it’s important to know they don’t come from a position of experience. Like people who say gankers are sociopaths. You don’t understand the otherside of the coin at all.

Wow you’re right.

I’d hate to do something like this:

Let me repeat your quote to put things back into context:

I allowed myself to extend your statement. The proven parts officially followed up by CCP themselves is that retention was almost exclusively tied to players engaging with others - no matter if pve, pvp or whatever. It is the interaction with actual players in any form of corporation that showed the highest form of ‘sticking around’ not a specific part of the gameplay.

1 Like

If you don’t feel the problem high sec wannabe PvPers had with Crimewatch was the flag timers, feel free to elucidate any other ‘nerf’ to PvP you care to, in detail. Rather than making vague references to nerf after nerf.

You often take the position that ‘frequent nerfs to PvP have cost the game players’ (which it has, though the question is about extent and whether the same changes retained other players), and that ‘more PvP will keep more players around’ and that ‘PvP is good for socializing’. You state these opinions, but rarely have a shred of data to back them up.

You often misinterpret the 2015 “our brief study has shown no evidence that illegal ganks drive players away, but rather a very slight tendency to stick around” as showing “ganks in high sec PvP retains players”. The actual summary of that data from any meaningful statistical analysis (given the terms they use to describe it) would be “over the span of this small study, illegal ganking in high sec did not show a conclusive effect in either direction”.

I’ve PvPed, I find it boring. I get no kick out of attacking weaker targets, I have zero interest in another player’s ‘salt’, I don’t need to prop up my ego by pretending I’m a badass in a video game for killing weaker players. Thus, the only challenge PvP in EVE presents to me is going up against reasonably fair competition in a test of skill and builds, and that almost never happens in EVE. As people often say, if you’re in a fair fight in EVE, you both did something wrong. I’m also completely uninterested in TiDi pissing matches over whose alliance is the big boy.

So yes, certainly for me in particular, EVE is not interesting for PvP, and likely never will be. For PvP I go to games that are actually designed to make PvP interesting and easily accessible. That doesn’t prevent me from spending a dozen years reading EVE forums and blogs and newsposts and watching what happens in the game.

You also keep trying to build the case that the “wardec nerfs” were bad for retention or at least ineffective. There are many other factors applying to retention over the same period of time, not least of which is simply the increased ISK cost per wardec. Some metrics CCP has shown are up, others are down. It’s obviously still a work in progress, and IMO was never a huge factor in overall player retention anyway. While the previous effects of wardecs may well have been ‘stark’ on the people typically wardecced against, I doubt that was ever a very significant percentage of the player base.

To put it another way, the current wardec system hasn’t really helped much. But then, the player trends of the past 10 years show that none of the previous wardec systems were any good for player retention either.

I don’t find your position overly ‘wrong’, per se, just that it is usually misdirected and poorly focused in a way that won’t help EVE improve and move forward. I also find your emphasis on high sec ganking to be weaksauce and lame. And generally you have too few facts to support your positions.

“Going back to PvP the way it was” won’t fix EVE, it was always poorly designed. “Making PvP work better and be more interesting in EVE” is certainly something I could get behind. “Bring back the good ol’ days” isn’t.

2 Likes

My first kill was a Titan. Check killboard.

And now more seriously. I dont like PvP in EVE because its too much micromanagement and I am bad at this. I like the PvP games where you have to plan tactically and where reaction times and positioning are important, but where you have not too many levers to push in the encounter itself. In EVE I always forget something and even in Gila I cant really kill anything because there is just too many things going on and I cant remember them all.
Maybe with a lot of practice I would be good at solo pvp, but for now I am skilled in evading fights more than anything, what really goes nicely with my prime activity in EVE- PvE.

Thats my oppinion, as much as its worth.

2 Likes

I’ve come and gone with EVE over the years. There have been long stretches where I played almost full-time with half a dozen subbed accounts, and there have been long stretches where all my accounts were Alpha, and there have been long stretches of something in-between. I’ve done everything from hisec industry to lowsec FW to piracy to nullsec alliance military fleets and POS management to mining to mission running to living in wormholes to playing solo across a wide swath of different areas. I’ve given some thought to what actually draws me into the game and what turns me off.

I enjoy fleets. In fact, fleeting up with other pilots is pretty much the only way you can get me into PVP and even then I prefer to fly logi. I enjoy logistics and reconnaissance. There’s something deeply satisfying about all the planning and scrambling necessary to provide strategic support to fleet and alliance assets, particularly when those fleets or assets are in a spot of real danger. The coordination with other pilots, and not just your own accounts (although the more the merrier) lends these activities the same satisfaction as combat fleets. Wormholes are fun for all the same reasons. I’ve considered joining Signal Cartel more times than I care to count. I also enjoy mining fleets, in fact I loved boosting mining fleets with my Rorqual back in the POS days while I mined on my alts with a fleet full of like-minded combat ready krabbs. It makes you feel like a contributing member of a team who is happy to have you with them. This feeling is the beating heart of every MMO, and the game’s success or failure is largely dependent on how well and how often it facilitates players experiencing that feeling.

This is the real reason so many pilots are citing the death of the Alliance Tournament as a reason they finally left EVE. The AT was team-building gudfights rut rut rut for the home team in a nutshell. It was the EVE version of e-sports when e-sports is eating the gaming world alive. Who in their right mind would kill it? I understand that CCP hates casinos and gambling and wants to kill it with fire, but really guys, despite what the Goons believe is true deep down in their souls, casinos are not the devil that’s stalking EVE. Casinos were actually a good thing for generating “content,” and if the Casino War didn’t demonstrate that with flying colors, well, I don’t know what to tell you.

The truth is this: the devil that is killing EVE is bots. The Botting Menace is the antithesis of everything that is good about EVE, everything that makes people want to play EVE, and if CCP does not kill it with the same fire with which they killed the casinos then in a few years all this game is going to be is Botting Online. This makes me sad not because I dread the loss of PVP, but because I actually enjoy activities like running missions or ratting or mining, and I don’t want to see these things ruined by bots when they should be something which is enjoyed by players.

On a more personal note, nowadays I mostly login for Incursion fleets, because that is the most reliable, easily accessible way for me to go explode some stuff with other players who need my dank reps. It helps that it rewards me with dank ISK, which enables me to pursue other goals in the game such as building my own little industry empire in some far distant wormhole, perhaps. For the record, I rage quit EVE the last time when CCP reduced the number of hisec incursions from 3 to 1 to make room for Invasions, which are an inferior gaming experience. Incursion fleets pay better, and more importantly they require participation by more players. In an era when EVE is dying I understand providing fleet-based PVE for smaller groups…but really, you could have just fixed FW/losec and done a much better job of this that would have been exciting to more players and not taken something away from people who still regularly play. But I digress.

My real life precludes me from dedicating serious time to the game in the way I once did, and besides that there’s only one nullsec alliance I would even consider joining, and even then I have serious reservations about participating in that aspect of the game despite the fact the mechanics are probably the best place for me to find the feel goods I’m looking for. The politics, which has ended in an inevitable detente between a half dozen or so Super Dropping Super Important EVE Celebrity Coalition Leader FCs, is killing the game second only to the botting. It’s a major turn-off to me investing myself in such goings-on. I would enjoy watching all of nullsec burn to the ground. I guess that’s one good thing about the Triglavians.

3 Likes

I tried it few times but it always did not impress me. It didnt feel engaging, it was tiresome. Jumping, waiting, someone was lost, People didnt know what to do, me included. Too cryptic language also. PvP reduced to target and press f1 felt not rewarding after all that hassle.

I may have felt like many others in fact. Thats why the filaments that lead to null were so popular I think. Reduced waiting times and straight into action.

1 Like

I would ‘like’ your post more times if I could. Pretty much agree with everything in it. Just quoted the ‘reduced Incursions to 1’ line because I think it’s probably time CCP recognized that nerfing popular content in order to make their ‘new’ content more played was kind of crazy.

@CCP, put Incursions back up to at least 2. Shake them up a little if need be, but let people play the content they choose rather than whatever CCP thinks they should be playing.

(Apologies if I’m out of date on Incursion limits, I haven’t been playing much lately)

2 Likes

And yet you chose pvp to sneer at.

Why?

Wardecs (you know this). The watch list. Awoxing. Ganking.

Honestly when crimewatch was first introduced i was supportive. Suspect timers seemed like the right thing to do. I didn’t expect that it would have such an impact on can flipping or ninja looting. And then we’ve gone a step further by making anyone who 3rd parties in a fight criminal.

These are players working together to create content. Finding an alternative to the grind. And what’s more, they don’t need much sp or isk to start out (well wardecs do now).

I just repeat the data when someone says ‘pvp/ganking pushes players away’. If I’m wrong they should have something to show for it.

You’re happy enough to let such claims fly but if anyone answers it with data you can’t help yourself.

They were portrayed as the demon scaring away new players. They were nerfed in the name of helping player retention. T’was awesome.

That’s not to say i didn’t think there were some bad practices regarding wardecs. The ridiculous k/d ratio was alarming and the likes. Which is why I posted this in 2015:

https://eve-search.com/thread/452609-1

Work in progress does not fill me with confidence. When it comes to ccp, WIP doesn’t necessarily mean WIP. Planetary interaction has been WIP since 2010…

Grats.

I hope you know i meant no offense. But i wasn’t going to entertain the idea that the people i was addressing were frequent pvp’rs on their alts. And I’ll point that out when such people try to judge the motivations (or mental/emotional state) of pvp’rs.

…and when you then win a fight against that bait tanked VNI and his 4 buddies, you get the chills - with your modules on fire.

And I agree, ganking some noob or ship without modules on is not super duper challenging or interesting but many people are only capable of shooting at newbies or ships that cannot shoot back and go on how “gudh” they are at not pvp.

1 Like

i didnt sneer but you made a very one-sided statement without any foothold which i extended with my comment. The only reliable figures are those by CCP so far - anything else is just a ‘feeling’ or ‘biased opinion’. I have no preference for any of it in particular but you made the pvp part sound like a fact - which it isnt/wasnt .

1 Like

Fancy that…

This is the primary reason why people stick around. I come across a lot of players and they don’t even hail back.

Im confused.

CCP posted a thread to talk to their players. They decided to post it to a website their players may or may not have an account (plebbit). Even though there is a website every player is guaranteed to have an account (EVE online forums). Making interaction with the true player base exlusive to the actual player base and with minimum effort from the players.

Where have I see this before?

“We want to make an FPS tied into an existing game that has a pure PC player base.”
PLAYSTATION EXCLUSIVE!

I could never hit myself in the face hard enough to make a sound loud enough as to be analogous to this level of big brain.

5 Likes