Incursions in shields or armor? and why armor always wins a contest

Hello Pilots,

Here is a suggestion for the eve devs.
If one wants to form a HQ fleet in incursions you can choose between shields and armor.
Armor fleets have a fleet comp. of roughly the following:
3 battleship logi (nestor) and 2 cruiser logi.
Shields does not have a single battle ship with bonus to logi rep so usually one looks at 7-10 cruiser logi.
Now with the armor fleet comp. the other 2-5 free spots in the fleetcomp is filled with dps, meaning they can roughly bring 2-5 more dps then shields on the field
Since shields cannot do this they will always put out less dps then armor does and there is not really a way to counter this.

The two battle ship im referring to are, nestor and leshak.
Nestor:
50% bonus to remote armor repair amount
100%bonus to remote armor repair optimal range and falloff

Leshak:
100% bonus to remote armor repair range
50% reduced remote armor repair capasitor need

Now since shields does not have a single battleship hull that can do the same, its at a disadvantage.
So i like to suggest this:

Nestor:
50% bonus to remote repair amount
100%bonus to remote repair optimal range and falloff

Leshak:
100% bonus to remote repair range
50% reduced remote repair capacitor need

If CCP can inplement this, the field will be lvled again so shields has a change to actually contest armor and win <-- more content
And ccp does not have to invent a new hull to lvl the playing field.

So i do hope they will look at this and maby think about htis…

Fly reckless but stay safe in RL

K

3 Likes

Definitely should be a shield battleship logi ship.
The meta is heavily slanted here.

Here’s another request:

1 Like

Yes, but armor has less low slots, most shield fits have more pure dps than armor fits, which matter more in TCRCs. Looking at the WTM fits the most basic vindi has 4 magstabs. Advanced vindis also have DDAs and do a whole lot more damage, enough to compensate for 2-5 ship slots.

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make a shield elite vindi fit and a armor elite fit and do the numbers, its not that hard to calculate :slight_smile:

Yes, we need shield bonus rep BS, not just for Incursions but for pvp as well. Huge advantage of armor in Incursions is cap, if outuni neuts armor ship his tank is still fine if it neuts shield ship invuls go down and its game over.

I think your argument is a bit off.
• It’s not Armor vs Shield, its Elite vs Not Elite.
• Armor doesn’t always win contests.
• Vindi shield has 5% more DPS, NM shield has 9% more DPS

An overheated pith-A Macherial meatshield requires 6 cruiser logi to rep them in a preloaded TCRC after the resist nerf. In a perfect universe with perfect skills and perfect elite fits the difference is maybe 2 battleships. But that universe really doesn’t exist.

We can win contests with 10 less against some communities not because we have less logi but because:
• Elite Fits + Complete implants Requirement
• Upgrade skills requirement
• Learn to fly your ship. I can do 30% dps more in a Nightmare then in a Paladin if I sit in the right place.
• Discipline

2 Likes

True, there is no elite shield group so we will never know :slight_smile:

1 Like

I compared two ships both elite, one armor, one shields, no drugs no drones all lvl 5 skills, same hull, no difference in inplants.

The difference im showing is paper dps obviously, so no i dont think im a bit off:)

What i am saying is simply this:
With the nestor beeing the powerbeast it is and shields not having one, we cannot do the total dps armor does on gridd, its that simple

Subcaps
BignSmall

2 Likes

Only battleships I know of with armor repair bonuses are the Leshak and Nestor. Neither are covert cloak capable. A prerequisite for blops. So how can you do this with armor and not shield?

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I agree that a large portion of the difference in meta is the two ships, but elite and contest focused vs casual/newbie and not trained to contest well is a huge part of it. Before TDF moved to nestor doctrine, I could take 26 elite shield fits on grid and beat them soundly (2014, RIP HELIX) and beat a full fleet of WTM with that too. Now it’s the other way around at full fleets, because TDF has become the elite fleet with a contest focus and elite fits AND nestors/shaks allow them to field more battleships focused entirely on DPS and their logi are still doing some significant DPS due to the drone bonus on the nestors (and shak’s getting up to 4 battle reps while still doing full DPS)

I’m also in favor of either this sort of change to balance out PVP somewhat, and may go hit F&I to propose such a ship or a change.

2 Likes

I see people bring up meta and pilot skill and all kinds of things, but one thing is being overlooked. There is a staggering difference in modules available for these two tank types. In just comparing the t2 modules armor is significantly more efficient.
Unbonused a T2 Large Remote Armor Rep activation is 365, rep 512hp per 6 seconds. 85.3 repeating hp per second at 1.4 hp per cap.
Unbonuses a T2 Large Remote shield booster activation is 543, rep 680hp per 8 seconds. 85 hp per second at 1.25 hp per cap
Unbonuses a ‘Peace’ Large Remote Armor Repairer activation is 234, rep 456 per 5.4 seconds, 84.4 repeating hp per second at 1.94 hp per cap

This tells me that if we were to make Nestor and Leshak shield and armor the armor is still going to be noticeably better. Since both are armor they have low shield capabilities. Leshak has 3850 base shields, myrmidon has 3500 hurricane has 4500
Add to this the fact that shield reps have much shorter optimal your fleet will have to compensate with more reps anyways. with current bonuses you get 16,080m opti and 24,000m fall off.

Copying the Nestor or its bonuses over to shield may be a start but I don;t think it will be enough to give a well balanced ship. In the current set up a shield Nestor would need a Basilisk to feed it cap or it would run dry. Our Nestor’s already run the razors edge a lot of the time in incursions. I am certain anyone in pvp would notice the deficiency. So the only nice thing about shield Nestor is reps at the start of cycle.

Thanks,
Com

3 Likes

Add in the remote repair augmentor rigs too, those are yet another major benefit armor has over shield.

2 Likes

Whenever I watch streams and people show their fit its always shield.
Shield has been better than armor for awhile now.

1 Like

It really really depends. For solo missions? Yep.

For incursions, invasions or most pvp with remote reps on field? Not so much, largely because of the various rigs, implants and better basic cap efficiency.

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Shield also got a recharge and it have armor as buffer, armor ships do not have much buffer as soon as it hits structure

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Passive recharge is inconsequential when it come to fleets. Also a plate adds nearly double the HP of a shield extender. So what you lose in buffer from shield you more than gain in raw armor HP.

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Pretty darn sure the new Edencom ships will take care of this.

@Belthazor4011 That makes one of us. We have nothing significant to indicate this will be the case.

@Kendar And armor has shield as a buffer for lock time the first time someone gets aggro. Add that the highest DPS ships are all intended for armor tank based on HP allocation and slot layout (Leshak, Vindicator, Paladin) and you have a fairly major discrepancy in base HP which gets the benefit. Add the advantages of a plate over an LSE, and the relative ability to add more tank (many shield doctrine ships are at the absolute limit of what can be added, with all mids for tank except the prop mod)

Just common sense. Since the new ships are clearly to fight the Trigs their ships will be their mirrors. So the weapon will do EM and Kinetic damage and they will be shield instead of armror. Also in the few views we’ve had at the new ships they look very Caldari. So thats another thing in favor of them being shield ships. The ramp up system of their new weapon might actually a be missile launcher that starts shooting faster and faster. Either way, like 92.76% sure about the shield bit.

1 Like