Isnt it finally time to NERF Incursions?

(Scipio Artelius) #122

Totally reasonable. Yep. However, the gankers do.

So should I take it that there are no examples because not a single ganker involved in these activities has ever registered on zkillboard?

(yellow parasol) #124

i’m sorry, i don’t know if you missed it, so i’ll point at it again. the above reddit link leads to a file containing all registered kills on zkill of the date of posting in 2014 and before. i thought you might be interested.

(Black Pedro) #125

Scipio’s time zone means he probably is sleeping so I’ll give this a go:

That post is from Squizz, the dude responsible for zkillboard. That means all those kills are in zkillboard already, so I don’t think there is any additional information to be gleaned by pulling them from a CCP directly.

(yellow parasol) #126

But he wrote…

(Black Pedro) #127

Actually, I think Scipio is mistaken. API verified killmails started the end of 2012. I have no clue if older killmails are present in the new ESI, but regardless, I am a sure that all available old-style API confirmed killmails since let’s say the beginning of 2013 are already in zkillboard. Non-confirmed killmails on the other killboard are probably of only limited use anyway.

In any case I would consider zkill as authoritative as any site so I trust Squizz’s data. I think though Scipio could go back another year or so, to around the time Dr.EyjoG said “Exumers were blowing up at a historically low rate” (page 104). Ganking has only massively declined since then making it pretty clear we are currently living in a time of peak highsec safety.

(Scipio Artelius) #128

Yeah it’s certainly possible that I’m mistaken on when the data is authorative from.

This post by Squizz a couple of years ago started the process of zkill trying to be a reliable source of information:

[zkb] Just a PSA for some changes only a few will like, the rest of you,…

Manual killmails. Ugh, I feel dirty just saying those words. First, all manual killmails worth 5b ISK or more have already either been replaced…
Nothing before 2007 and all manual killmails removed, but otherwise the data should be ok from then.

CREST came in, in 2014 (api’s earlier) and for some reason I seem to recall that this was accompanied by additional changes on the killmail server that eliminated bugs, but I can’t find a reference anymore. Not that zkill isn’t reliable before that, but that killmail generation in general wasn’t as reliable before that, but I could be totally remembering it wrong.

So yeah, I could probably pull a lot more data, which I just started doing and it can chug away while I’m at work.

(Nicoli Voldkif) #129

Ganks don’t happen that often in Incursions because incursion runners have become better at preventing it, they have learned. Everything that people bitched that they should learn how to do better they do.They watch local, they have contingency plans everything to make them a hard target.

(Black Pedro) #130

Yup. That and CCP active made several changes to aggression mechanics to limit the windows of opportunity mess with them. The few remaining ones are easily mitigated by just paying attention as you say and as a result you have nearly perfectly safe group PvE exactly as CCP intends for incursions to be.

I have no problem with that. The increased efficiency of farming the unchanging incursions has effectively raised the ISK/h that can be extracted from them which means they probably do need either a slight nerf to their payout, or better yet could use a few tweaks to mix them up and introduce some uncertainty that would force more flexible and less specialized fits and reduce payout a tad that way. Best would be to introduce new mechanics that caused payouts to be more based on fleet-member response, but that is a harder game design problem.

Still no word though on their future in the upcoming expansion next month. They could be subject to some change, or even removal, when the FOBs are introduced along side them. Probably not, but I we should get that devblog very soon.

(Black Pedro) #131

Maybe but I am pretty confident that XML-verified kill became a thing in 2012. CREST and now ESI opened verification of even more past kills over time, but I don’t know how good the coverage is each year nor do I have a good way of estimating that. Maybe @Squizz_Caphinator has a better idea.

Still, at least 2013 looks pretty complete to me for killmails.

(Nevyn Auscent) #132

Or you could stop falling for incursion community advertising as the true isk/hr rates that actually get earned, because everyone loves to brag their best figures and leaves their worst ones out.
Or that entire week where no-one earned any isk because someone was killing the incursions instantly.

And you might need to name these aggression mechanics CCP changed for the sake of Incursions, because I sure don’t recall a single change to crime-watch that made any difference to the incursion community. Unless you are trying to pretend that the change for NPC’s to target inside incursion sites actually made a difference, in which case prove that ganks regularly happened in a site before that (Hint, they didn’t)

(Scipio Artelius) #133

Yeah possibly even further. In any case, looking at the info now, there are api verified killmails back to 2007.

(Black Pedro) #134

The change in the way logi flags propagate under CrimeWatch was a direct response to people messing with Incursion fleets. It’s also why we have to continue to suffer with significant negative impact of neutral logi on wars just so incursion fleets can be safer.

Come on Nevyn, you have to admit that the players have gotten better at milking incursions over the years. As a result they are paying more then they originally intended. Even CCP acknowledges they probably pay too much now (p.125).

All I am saying is they are a little overdue for some attention, and that includes their reward structure. I can see why CCP hasn’t touched them as just nerfing income would annoy everyone who runs them, but a “stealth nerf” during a refresh by making them take a little longer or use less efficient ships or whatever would be part of new content and hopefully accepted better. Unfortunately, at resource starved CCP they haven’t found time to look at group PvE for years and years, until now. With the next expansion all focused on group PvE it would not surprise me at all if incursions received some tweaks, even if they are just minor ones to put them in line with the new content.

(Frostys Virpio) #135

It’s also the amount of effort to reward ratio to ganking them that is kinda bad. If you gank a freighter, you get a KM and loot. If you try to gank an incursion runner, you get a KM and that’s it. If you were to make a real hard plan, you might snag a few bling logi and watch a few BS explode from your POD but this won’t be a trivial amount of effort or ISK put into the gank fleet for poor returns because looting the field is a maybe at best.

There aren’t that many people who gank for the sake of ganking. More people do it when there is a buck to make out of it. Even if you pop a bling autism-chariot, you might not get anything out of it so you need dedicated people who would probably rather gank freighters for example.

(Salvos Rhoska) #136

Substitute LS security mechanics into HS Incursion systems.

(Agondray) #137

you want to destabilize incursions, get 60 pilots and pop the mom when it appears. problem solved.

(yellow parasol) #138

i remember when incursioneers whined about the goons rightfully popping their money making machines…

(Agondray) #139

ah when I was running and it happened, it was 1 group was in the manifest, the other group came to contest, and someone ran a neut on the field and stole the drop. for months after the 2 groups proceeded to kill the super as fast as it spawned, and wonder why the number of runners dropped

(Maja Chou) #140

you dont know mutch about Incursions and the past nerfs it got right?

few example:

aggro is switching now to all fleet members and even drones.
result is you cant use one main tank anymore all fleetmembers need proper tank to survive.
that means incursion fleets had to take out some dmg applikation or dmg mod modules from the ships… that slowed it down
probably every day a fleet loose some drones this even lowers the isk they make and the aggro switching is even more unpedigdable and realy hard

Vylads are now realy fleetboosters for the sanshas that was a buff for the sansha site and you hade to change shooting order who even slow down the fleet

Mara Paleo now realy repair ther fleetmembers, that can be that mutch you need to shoot them first OR you can go complettly stuck in the site with a low dps/member fleet in risk of loosing ships
you can adapt using ECM against but this again take out dps from the fleet and… tadaa slows you down

one last change but even a hard one was the on grid boosting
you have now 1-2 ships on grid who do mostly not one dps and even cant be used als logistig replacement
so we now loose again 1k-3k dps from our fleets

and now the last change was you cant use leecher/scout alts to fill the fleets and get a payout if the didnt do anything in the sites

this all together i call incursion income nerfs

the changes to max member counts out of highsec and allowing capitals to go in the site not affekts isk making over all. its more a try to make the incursions in lowsec more attractiv and in null give the locals the option to use ther capitals to remove the incursion

over all just take a look into the isk making stats in eve and you see incursions arent the realy problem^^

(niters rocks) #141

The “leecher/scout” do still get pay-outs CCP made a mistake (at least in HQ). However I agree incursions have been nerfed even if people don’t realise it

ps: would find the drama very funny if only 1 focus in high sec all the time

(yellow parasol) #142

Your whole issue is that you get less money now, which means you have no issue worth paying attention to.