so after doing the math, the highest PG setup for tengu only comes out to about 1042.643 PG which is about 265 short of any fit with oversized afterburners(assumign you are using hams and 2 PD’s), so this type of fit is being effectively outlawed by these changes? or is there something im missing?
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Thanks for all the hard work on looking at the balance of these ships!
I’m a bit concerned about cloaky / nullified configurations. After this change, decent cloaky / nullified T3C logi will be possible, as well as tolerable EHP and damage cloaky / nullified T3Cs. It could allow cloaky / nullified fleets to stand and fight like a normal doctrine, rather than being limited to local reps like they are now. This is extremely powerful, especially considering that they will essentially be unengagable unless they choose to engage.
Did you guys look at this, or come to any conclusion about it?
Crap crap crap
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[quote=“Kyral_Kujan, post:27, topic:8414, full:true”]
Wasn’t the point of the rebalance to make it so T3Cs aren’t overshadowing T2 Cruisers?[/quote]
It may have been what they said was the point, but consider that these changes bring the number of configurations from 5x4 down to 4x3, so 12 instead of 20 different variations when making skins.
Well, I can already see some nerfing on the Tengu’s Interdiction Nullifier. Not happy about adding -20KM to target ranges especially if that per skill level? While increasing +20m Sig Radius (is that also per skill level?)
If it is per skill level then its not worth playing the new Interdiction Module with maxed L5 skills at -100KM to ranges and +100m Sig Radius. May as well dump interdiction modules and leave that capability to interceptors, because the Tengu is good as dead with that module, e.g. can’t fight because range is nerfed and will get insta locked likely with a warp scram, so you can’t run, so just die.
Futhermore the agility bonus in the old system is separated in the new Chassis Optimization system. The 7.5% agility bonus might make it worth having, but no more zipping around null without the worry of bubbles
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[quote=“Dior_Ambraelle, post:169, topic:8414, full:true”]
“Tengu” for example covers 1024 sips currently, [/quote]
No, you only need to recognize the 20 (12 after patch) parts. The fact that they can be combined to create more variety is irrelevant except perhaps that it causes confusion…
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So, what the heck is the random skill lose for anyhow? This seems totally insane.
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[quote=“Susitna, post:181, topic:8414, full:true”]…waste a ton of skill points trained for other ships.
[/quote]
But now, you can extract and sell them!
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T3Cs can be versatile without being able to do absolutely anything. They don’t have to make the tractor bonus too powerful, they only need to have one exist. Being able to salvage with covert T3C fits the context for which T3Cs were created perfectly.
I won’t comment much on Marauders. I brought up the tractor bonuses only for the salvaging part of a wh site. That site is supposed to be cleared from a dedicated fight ship that is not a Battleship class, and just be waiting to get salvaged from a dedicated salvager. We need more options than a bulky Noctis to salvage these sites. From that perspective using a Marauder for this task makes no sense.
No, but under 100 dps is not acceptable. I would like to see it capable in the 270 DPS range with covert option. That puts in at least on a level playing field. 170 DPS and nicely balanced shield tank would be perfectly fine by me, as long as i didn’t have to use implants to get that. The PG is so low on this ship that it is simply not useable. It may have a niche being attractive to young players looking for something unique and blingy. It will be a nice little egg for older players to Alpha.
With the new design, you will see this ship literally right off the playing field -with the exception being rich explorers who fly them just because. There IS no versatility left in this ship that is practicable for any role solo other than hisec exploration, or gangs/fleets. As you try different fits for a role in mind, you will quickly see that it is impossible to use this ship in a way that will profit you, except hisec exploration. The only way to ses is to fit it yourself. You will notice MASSIVE deficiencies that simply cannot be resolved without drugs and implants, and an expensive dose of both. Now, with 4B worth of implants this ship begins to shine again and is really a dreamy boat but I personally wont risk that to fly it, some might but not me.
I think CCP should outright remove the T3C from the game, The cattle are out already, sort’a’speak, and I honestly don’t think there is a solution but to can them now. Ideally, CCP would give us back the skill points so that we could reapply them to something else. The T3 dessies are way better any anything -than the T3C’s and I would like to see those T3D’s focused on and developed. I want a ship that can hold its own exploring wormhole and hostile nul. I want to be able to do SOME escalations, possibly data/relic (although there is ISK in this now), move around with some stealth, and of course hold my own in PVP. I want to do this using missile capable ships, as they are the only thing I have FUN shooting. Fix the Nestor, or give the Stratios and Astero some missile hard points. Develop these ships for the multi-purpose hard-knock roles. The rook is actually almost on par with the Tengu now in many potential roles, but it lacks bonuses to exploration use (this is not such a big deal for skilled pilots or can be countered by implants). I believe this particular nerf was purely an adlib reactionary improv to try to solve a bigger problem surrounding exploration and covert PVP in general. While I am very satisfied with CCP’s high moral in ensuring fair play, I do think this wasn’t path to solve the larger issues.
-Since Alpha intro, new players learned quickly to exploit the high payouts/lo skill/risk/isk involved in exploration. This caused the markets to alter and took the reward out of exploration for older players. I will admit this is exactly what I did as well -and i was at the point where I could turn 1B a day no problem…with a 2 month old character -if I applied myself and remained focused on exploration. Myt net worth ballooned to 60B 3-4 months into the game. (don’t worry, I lost in the areas that made me ISK -very quickly. But a newbie character flying around in a Stratios or Nestor bein’ bling is kind of absurd (and obscene lol) -yes, this was me also.
-With changes to the economy due to influx of explores, loot value rapidly declined. This discourages older players from this career path. They took up hunting bling, new explorers -using Tengus, which helped restore some balance.
-T3C’s were something that senior capsuleers looked forward to. They were the sort of end-game ship for many, including myself. I have no desire to fly a POS (lol) or a mobile POS (E.g. Titan, etc). Many other players prefer solitude or small fleets to this I am a newbie, yet able to fly this ship. That shouldn’t be. Looking back, I wish I had of stayed in T1 frigates for the first few months, By right about now, I should be graduating to Destroyers. (I got wise and signed my corp to FW and we are all flying T1 frigs and dessies now for the most part)
-T3C’s (Tengu in particular) found a niche in solo combat/sleeper explorations sites and could also subsequently also run escalations with skill. These uses were limited to generally limited to older players, as the risk was too high for any other type of ship solo (in Wh or hostile nul). This was where I had my sites set. The golden egg, as they say. It wasn’t easy ISK by any means, and still had risk. But it was feasible with a skilled pilot. I felt in a good year to year in a half, I would have good chance be able to attempt these activities with success.
-I really see this latest series of changes upsetting the game all-round. I am not sure what sorts of research you (CCP) has done but if you were aiming for the minute super-blop epic battles on Android app… You’ve definitely wandered down the right path. This IS the way people seem to be going overall anyway, since the average Joe or Jane has the attention span of a Jack Russel Terrier these days. People cannot finish a book let alone play a game like Eve. Traditionally, Eve has catered to the different-than-average Jane (or Joe) and filled a niche. Eve will loose older players because those players will loose interest. New (especially unintelligent, like myself) players seek instant gratitude. Alpha states opened the flood gates to this, and there has been a HUGE in rush of this, and this mindset will unfortunately decide the fate of New Eden.
The covert destruction of the T3C’s will hurt old players whom solo. They will end up leaving the game. The new younger players will begin to fill their places however, and dominate… with a different mindset: these players want to squeeze an epic battle in between meetings, or classes or while taking transit. They want it all -and in 3 minutes tops, as studies have shown. I was hoping that this was an island that would maintain integrity and be stoic in the face of this behavior, but… ( really hope I am wrong here)
Faction ship changes make them less attractive to older players as well. Everything bigger than a BS caters to those that get thrills from power alone. Many of us have no desire to sit in the throne -we just want to be out there and experience!
What SHOULD have been done, was to make the most powerful, sought after ships the hardest to attain -time wise, and lowered costs. This would put these out of the hands of a 1 month old infant capsuleer who is blowing around in a barghest blowing up Citadels (that by coincidence, were also build by new players). Young players should have one path to have access to these fancy toys, but the cost should a very high price, unreasonably so. They should have to either pay outrageous amounts via skill injectors, or use the most valuable currency… time. A new character can fly a T3 Dessie in something like 11 or 12 days. This is outrageous. It should take at least a year to even get there; And this idea of skills making such drastic leaps in bonuses… should be scrapped in favour of making it really really hard to fly these in the first place…and small bonuses that DO NOT disappear with losses. The old foggies deserve respect and reward in the game, I think. They should BE ALLOWED to hold the top dawg position. Challenged accordingly, as younger players very gradually learn how. This is how it is in nature and I am surprised at how New Eden deviates in these key areas from nature -as it hold true in so many other ways. I was drawn to the whole concept believing that this was not a game -but a challenge on the fundamental question…What IS reality? The fact that this universe exists makes it real, on a level. How real that is to you is entirely up to you, however. But subtle changes that introduce arcade game structure to it run a definite vein through that veil and shatter it to bits.
I know it sounds like I am making a big thing out of a little thing but it is a slippery slope that we are starting down. I think it is prudent to catch it before its too late -as the market shifts it will become the power that decides what New Eden is… CCP, please don’t make it an app for my phone that I play sitting on the toilet - I have enough of those already.
My final word, which isn’t by any means the most informed or experienced opinion, is…Reprocess.
I finally reprocessed my Tengu on SISI and I will sell the ones I own on TQ shortly, before the market plumettes. I expect it will spike briefly as players won’t know exactly what the ships actually are now and will be expecting it to be improved, before it goes south. If the price, however, goes low enough and stays low enough (reflective of the toy that this will become), and stays down in the 10-30M ISK range -then I might be willing to take it out -just because its different. Perhaps make that part of the new design -made from the highest efficiency materials that cost nothing! To boot, give it fast run times and make it as cheap to manufacture as a T1 Dessie, to start. The price will settle in where its supposed to on its own after time. But overall I think the class of ships has lost any feeling of real because its been tinkered with so much. I will always find it hard to believe I am sitting in a ship -rather than just some lines of code (code thats being held together with duck tape and thumb tacks). It ha simply lost its integrity (if it is implemented as scheduled). Trash it, and say that the systems that kept it alive were causing a rift in spacetime… a rift that would lead to the demise of the Universe… So it had to be carefully dismantled… Build another monument, and a graveyard full of T3C Relics. Keep the T3D’s add develope the SOE and SoC ships for these roles. Raise the bar way high on skills needed for anything other than T1’s and navy factions, give the rook and one of the stealth bombers a role bonus for exploration (or make a selection from one of the combat recons like the Rook the ship that can run sleepers, escalations (with good skill and fitting), and make it wormhole friendly. These ships have lost their place in the game now anyways, so why not breathe new life here (this is the only other line i trained for, bombers and combat recons hehe). Stealth bombers right now can’t do anything but pester all but rookie ships now, so I can see how it would make sense to have them combat explorers. Anyways, I’ve went on enough, CCP if you read… I appreciate you taking the time to gain my input -and I apologize for the long windedness.
I feel you. That was my exact panic reaction the first time I tried fititng on SISI
It is NOT a good idea to use this current setup for this. You will loose a lot of ISK. On the bright side, gankers will get a nice influx of cash as all the newbies who argue right now til they r blue in the face that the changes are good… will be utterly unaware… til they hit the first gate camp hehe.
You are clearly disapppointed, However I suspect something is wrong with your SISI experience.
Have a look at your skills and /copyskills if neccessary, I have only personally looked at the Proteus and Tengu, But to me, the experience of the new ships is more a reimagining, rather than a Nerf.
Absolutely, Tank has taken a major hit, both in hit points and more especially in resists. But looking at the end result, and the options in fitting, means they will STILL have interesting roles, but not some of the ones we currently enjoy, HAC are likely to fill those in the future.
I don’t. But I think the ship should be at the high end of “end-game” Reserved for the oldest players as a carrot-type of reward. Sort of a retirement perk. But as of current, a couple month old player can do what you say -thats not acceptable given the investment you put it. But in RL, you have terrorists that use these same tactics and get to choose what/when to engage. I think keeping with nature, there should be a spot in the game for this. It doesn’t mean you won’t die (how many of us HAVEN’T fallen asleep playing and woke to find our capsule or being back in Jita). But the ship SHOULD give a high level of security to its pilot -A pilot who has well earned that right. Or impose a criminal response team that enters nul (not WH space), who is designed to specifically go after terrorists -the highest level of criminal in New Eden (and extreme specialists who are always old players) 
HAC’s don’t stand a chance solo in WH space. Can you give me some examples of what roles? I am at a loss for solo, except hisec exploration. And yes, I am very disappointed hehe I thought I was over it but still more tears for the jar I personally would wait another year if I had to to skill into the old Tengu. It was my imagined “end game” state
I can understand your position, but when one has a “best ship” situation, in an old game everyone will fly the “best ship” and that get really stale very fast.
As a cloaky hunter, the Tengu and Proteus (I fly these so checked them out) are vastly improved in their ability to hunt and kill, and vastly weaker in their ability to tank almost anything. Now that’s an interesting Dilemma, one has to make judgements and decisions.
If you have an “end game ship” that can catch and kill anything whilst being invunerable, where’s the long term interest in that?
Anyway, give them a try on TQ next week, (sisi may be broken for you for some reason), see how you feel then, and see if you can find things that work for them.
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@CCP_Fozzie, can you comment on the reasoning for nerfing the warp speed bonus on the hyperspatial optimisation (aka gravitational capacitor) and why you decided to completely remove the ability from the tengu?
I always felt like the warp speed bonus was too week and was hoping that you guys would have buffed it to 15% per level on this balancing pass. I also think that the warp speed bonus should be an option on both a shield T3C and a armour T3C.
Isn’t it still there for the tengu?
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Caldari Propulsion Systems bonuses per skill level:
10% bonus to warp velocity and acceleration
15% reduction in capacitor need when initiating warp
Role Bonus:
Immunity to non-targeted interdiction
Additional Stats:
+1L
+0.1 inertia
-20km max targeting range
+20m Signature Radius
Pretty excited about the new Loki.
Especially the missile variant and what looks like it could also fit artillery.
Although I think it could have a tad more speed/-sig as the defining characteristic of Minnie ships.
[quote=“Lord_Vyper, post:263, topic:8414, full:true”] I also think that Cloak and Nullification should never both be possible as a game designer I cannot comprehend how and why you would see this and not say this is broken. It leaves no room for counter gameplay. That is far too strong a loophole to introduce without removing its offensive capability.
In other words you should defang a ship that can escape any gate camp. [/quote]
To be honest, your argument is flawed at best and factually incorrect. While not easy, it is far from impossible to catch a cloaky nullified T3C at a gate, especially with the near battleship style align time they now have. By your reasoning it is unfair that interceptors can have sub 2s align time and be unaffected by bubbles.
Just because in general gate campers are lazy and lack the skills to properly run such a camp does not mean game play options should be brought to a level where this is rewarded.