Killmails should be public - All of them

Currently, ware based killmails are public, but others are not unless made public. This skews the data available and makes data nerds sad. Since war killmails went public and nothing exploded, I propose that all killmails are made public 24h after the kill. The delay would prevent immediate intel from killmails but them being fully public would allow comprehensive statistics and leaderboards to be created without being skewed by partial or cherry-picked data.

I believe that more accurate leaderboards would encourage much more competitive PvP and give people something to aim for.

Next patch, yeah?

Thanks.

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In what sense would they be “public”?

Is there going to be a big bulletin board in-game that provides all of these and makes them “public”?
Or is this another crybaby thread about a third party service that CCP doesn’t manage?

Through the ESI. CCP already release war killmails through the ESI which 3rd parties then pull data from. CCP expose market data, structures, sovereignty and other such data through the same system. There’s no reason they couldn’t also expose non-war killmails.

I’d also like politely ask you to remain civil. If you have thoughts on the propsal I’m open to them, but there’s no need for hostility.

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Nope. If anything we need less intel and less obsessing over killboard stats. CCP should remove all API verification of kills and losses, making killboards purely a third-party service whose accuracy depends on the honesty of the people using it.

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Exactly, killboards are for merry go round rides.

So a third party website not affiliated with CCP in any way allows players that want to post their kills to do so there, and that makes you feel entitled to demand that CCP should make this mandatory for everyone, regardless of whether they want to post their kills or not? Really?

And this is a CCP problem exactly why?

Don’t be a data nerd then. Problem solved.

Why do ALL players have to make their kills public, even if they don’t want to, just to make self-entitled data nerds happy?

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You’re calling that comment by scoots hostile? yowie wowie.

That’s the opposite direction to where CCP have been going. If they are going to remove all of their exposed data, I’d agree, but they aren’t in which case it seems better to have all of the data than some of it.

It’s already mandatory if those kills are part of a war. You also have no control over someone else posting up a killmail link or exposing corporation killmails you are not seeking to expose.

I do love how every suggestion is still met with cries of “the entitlement!” from people though. I’m not entitled to anything that you aren’t. Like you, I’m entitled to my opinion which I am free to post here as a suggestion for CCP. I think it would be beneficial to the community, and so far your only reason for being against it is that you don’t think I’m allowed to ask for it.

Why should they be private while many people don’t have that option for privacy?

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They kinda already are.

The MER has included an anonymized summary of all killmails for a year or two now. I think it is only PvP kills, but it does include the group each player was in so you can already calculate the stats you want.

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Even more of a reason to just open them up then.

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And the fact that CCP did this for wars only when they could have done it for everyone doesn’t give you a hint?

I have full control over whether I want to be member of a corp whose policies I don’t agree with, and it’s only the other party involved in the kill that may cause the kill to be posted if I don’t.

You pretend that, even if none of the two parties involved are willing to make the kill public, you should still have access to it… And you wonder how that qualifies as self-entitlement…

What? My reason for being against it is I don’t want anyone, me in particular, to have to make their kills public if they to don’t want to…

Who don’t have that option? Even if you’re at war, you still have that option for kills that aren’t part of the war.

That’s obviously less of a reason, not more, because it reduces the “need” for the data that you pretend should be made public…

Not really. Like many things I think it was that they released it partially then to see how well it worked out. It’s worked pretty well, now it’s time for the rest to be rolled out.

It’s not that simple though, because the corp itself doesnt; have to expose killmails.

:rofl: :rofl: It’s not self-entitlement, it’s a feature request. People like yourself seem to think that anyone that asks for anything is being entitled. Amusingly you’re demanding that killmails not be publicly released, and somehow don’t think that’s entitlement. Double standards much?

Then no killmails should be public. It shoule be impossible to expose a killmail publicly. Otherwise what you’re saying is that you should be able to keep yours private but for a whole range of reasons other people should not.

Maybe you should just be better at PvP then you wouldn’t have to be so scared about everyone seeing your actual kill stats.

Anyone with access to a killmail can share it. That means if you’re in a corp those mails can be shared without your permission, and if anyone else is on a killmail they can share it too. If you cared about privacy killmails would only show details of those who allowed them to be public and should just show question marks otherwise.

It’s more of a reason because it shows that data is already available and the world hasn;t imploded.

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Because you want to have access to that data, even if the parties involved don’t want to make it public…

Isn’t it? So how would you go about making my corp kills public if I’m unwilling to?

Exactly what you’re showing here. That’s not a mere “feature request”. That’s you pretending you’re entitled to have access to other players private data and asking for the change as a consequence of your self-entitlement…

Except I’m not demanding anything here. That would be self-entitlement on my part if killmails were intended to be public info and then I demanded them to be private just because I want mine to be that way. Where is the double standard?

No, and this is where it can be clearly seen who feels self-entitled here and who doesn’t.

I don’t pretend that, just because I don’t want my kills to be made public, the other parties shouldn’t be allowed to do so if they want to. Nor do I pretend that I should be removed from the kill info if it ends up getting posted by someone else. It’s only when nobody that has access to the kill wants to make it public that it shouldn’t be. It’s only because of how self-entitled you are that you cannot see the BIG difference here…

ROFLMAO. That you think everybody cares about those stats and they’re the reason some players may not want to make their kills public says it all about you… :crazy_face:

Exactly. Anyone with access to it already. Exactly my point. And not something I’m saying should be changed. That’s exactly why I’m saying you’re self-entitled, but I’m not…

What?

LOL. So according to your “reasoning” here, that’s a reason to make everybody’s private data about everything public, because hey, that data is already available in some aggregate statistical form and the world hasn’t imploded… Brilliant, really brilliant… :rofl:

Yes, like much of the already publicly available data. Killmails data is the only instance I can think of where some people have data exposed without their permission but others don’t. Maybe you should stop being so entitled and as the saying goes, HTFU.

Anyone in your corp can access a kill report then copy the external link to a killboard. They might even be able to create an ESI link for it to be done automatically, not sure what permissions you need for that but it’s not much.

It is a feature request though. I’m saying hat some kills are already public and that I see a positive impact and few negative impacts of opening that up. Amusingly, you’re claiming that you are deserving of the privilege of privacy of your kill mails that corps at war do not have.

Yes, you are. You’re demanding that you continue to have heightened privacy compared to a corp at war.

At the end of the day, I don’t think anyone is being “entitled” here, but if you’re going to screech at me that me making a game suggestion is entitlement them I’m sure as hell going to call out your crying about it as entitlement.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Because I think things should be equal? So me wanting things to be equal is entitlement and you wanting things to be unbalanced in your favour is not? OK, clearly you are just trolling. Go troll elsewhere, this is a serious thread about a feature request. I’m not going to continue having giant reply threads with a troll.

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A similar example of people having some of their data exposed without their consent is with tools like near2. A person or fleet’s location data is tracked and shared among what are probably enemy groups.

Having access to all data, even with a delay, provides a lot of intel on potential targets. At least what they’re likely to fly, where, when, and what fitting can be narrowed down with a generally greater degree of accuracy.

Put in the reverse, this is a request to deny people the ability to keep a secret, even if by rights nobody should know aside from those involved because nobody’s telling. It seems to qualify as asserting a preference over the preferences of others.

Knowledge is power. What people don’t know can hurt them, and this is one of the tools players use to control their environment. Sometimes successfully, and sometimes unsuccessfully. In poker, is he bluffing, or does he really have the cards? Unless you force him to show his hand, you won’t know. Perfect intel serves to diminish or remove this type of dynamic from Eve.

I use whatever tools are available to research my opponents, and that includes zKillboard, of course. I find that a measure of uncertainty keeps things interesting, and having to piece together a picture from multiple partial frames encourages my engagement.

I recognize that people manipulate zKillboard stats. I just don’t think it’s a significant issue that needs addressing. If people want to brag, let them brag. The loud are easy to figure out. They’re broadcasting everything I want to know, after all. It’s the quiet ones I have to watch out for.

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Except of course that some people are already denied that right, depending on their circumstance. I’d fully agree if no kill data were available publicly, but to have some completely public but others hidden, that’s a bias against particular playstyles.

This misrepresentation needs to be put to bed. No major PvPers are gathering decent intel from killboards, this is simply a line used generally by mediocre PvPers to make themselves seem like they know what they are talking about. Locator agents give better data.

It’s not about bragging rights to me. People can brag about whatever they want, but by having the data skewed it puts people off caring about their position, and in turn off of PvP. There’s no decent way to have a proper PvP leaderboard, and leaderboards drive content in competitive games. By exposing all data publicly a wide variety of comprehensive leaderboards could be developed which I honestly believe would encourage much more competition and much more content.

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You keep talking about this as if it worked differently for some players than it does for others… It doesn’t… It works exactly the same for everyone…

I should HTFU about what? About your proposal? You mean as if it was going to be implemented and I was asking for the change to be reverted or what? Don’t you see how ridiculous it is to ask someone to HTFU about something that only exists in your mind? :rofl:

Except I have full control over who is allowed in my corp and who isn’t. And over whether I want to join a corp that does this automatically. Not to mention players don’t go out of their way to find corp kills that weren’t posted in order to manually post them themselves…

You cannot even imagine there are players that don’t care about those KB stats, and that killmails are just an intel tool for them, can you?

And that’s your problem, your inability to see the negative impact of your proposal…

What’s amusing is that you keep talking about it as if some players have that “privilege” while others don’t, when that’s not the case. Members of corps that are at war have that “privilege” too. It’s only their war related kills that are public, all their other killmails have exactly the same privacy “privilege” as everyone else’s. It’s not that some players have a privacy “privilege” that others don’t, it’s that some kind of kills are public while others aren’t.

Again, I’m not demanding anything. Pointing out how crappy and self-entitled your proposal is does not equate to “demanding”… And corps at war have the exact same level of privacy that corps not at war have about everything not war related…

Yes, I’m going to keep calling you out for your self-entitlement, so please keep trying to make it look like I’m self-entitled too with some other inane “argument” of yours…

No. I already explained what makes you self-entitled. Your inability/unwillingness to read/understand it is your problem, not mine…

LOL, what? What do I want to be unbalanced in my favour?

Go post your crap elsewhere if you cannot deal with people showing your inability to argue properly.

That sounds like the sensible thing for you to do, indeed, especially after having shown the quality of your “reasoning” already…

ROFLMAO. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

What? Having kills not publicly available turns players off of PvP? How/why? Or WTF is it that you’re talking about here?

Man, I’m starting to realise this is really difficult for you to grasp, but you really need to understand that EvE is a much more open game than you seem to believe and that for many players it’s not about leaderboards at all…

There is literally no reason to show all the kms.
You wanting them for whatever reason, is not one.

Otherwise CCP should make me get all your assets.

You don’t get what KMs are. They are a service, made by CCP, to allow people compare their e-penis. They are literally designed with this goal in mind ; they historically were designed to help people validate the kills. That’s why you need the id and the hash, instead of just the id.

I however agree that you have a point. People should be allowed in-game to make all their KM public, eg with an option. AND that should make them listable on a specific list in the ESI. with a list of KillID:hashid couples available for that person. Also the same at corporation/alliance level.
But that should only be available as an opt-in mechanism. and maybe asking for people, in order to check if that is really interesting.

Knowledgeminer, I’m not reading all of that.

Read my posts better then. Quite clearly my reasoning is that I believe that more accurate and comprehensive leaderboards would encourage competition and create content.

No, I totally get that. That’s why my view is to open them all up publicly so people can be on accurate leaderboards and compare their epeens.

Why should it be opt-in? When I create a market order I can’t opt-in to that being publicly available through ESI, so when I engage in any trading activity at scale it’s immediately visible to trading bots and other major traders. Kill data isn’t opt-in for anyone engaged in a war or anyone in a corp where an individual has exposed the links. So why should a subset of people have an opt-in mechanic for data while noone else has that?

Nobody cares. The only difference that would make is whether you’d be able to understand what’s wrong with your “reasoning”, which is your problem, not anyone else’s…