L4 Missions Need Rewards+

no, they do not

If anything, they give too much isk.

1 Like

If you are not having fun, DO SOMETHING ELSE.

The missions are only there as a tutorial, it’s time to try PvP.

no, they do not

oh, I find it fun to go through gate camps… did it so many times already that I can state with confidence that this “defensless” target is closer to uncatchable if done properly.

:smiley:

Mate … I’ve written so many words about this topic over the years, so allow me to teach you a perspective or two about what’s going on. You’re making the same mistake most people do, pretty much all day every day. People don’t put other people into the center of all problems regarding people.

Or, in other words: It’s always someone, or something, else.

  1. You assume rational decisions.
  2. You see the problem in the game, instead of the player.

These players always cared about their virtual possessions. It’s not about the amount of effort that’s being put in, they literally are like this. Nowadays it is far more easier to make shitloads of money, than it was in the past. Back then you had to mine for a week to get a ■■■■■■■ cruiser and a battleship was a HUGE achievement!

These guys from the past weren’t farmers. They all were pirates at heart. They were pioneers. They worked for their ■■■■, they liked it and all of us wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for them!

People nowadays have been raised to be like this. By games, TV, the whole “system”, that puts seriously unhealthy amounts of emphasis on individuality, all in the name of profits.

  • Remember the increase of farming games and korean MMOs specifically designed to be like this.

  • Remember way over a decade of games selling themselves behind “be the hero”, “be the legend”, “save the princess”, “protect the castle”. All these games were essentially targeting the same group of people. Just days ago I’ve realized a very fitting term for these carebears, whiteknights and farmers in general:

Disney Prince.

You know, in the past this game didn’t have any disney princes. Even though they had people who did not shoot anyone, those guys were more like @Jonah_Gravenstein, who enjoys the fact that EVE is actually a dangerous game and that you have to watch your own back. It’s a space game just like in the movies!

I absolutely believe that many people, who we never heard of, played EVE because it was dangerous everywhere, thus far more like scifi space movies, which is pretty much all we know about living in space. It makes no sense to assume otherwise, because EVE was advertised exactly as a cut-throat, hard to learn, full loot, no holds barred PvP game.

It’s still not too far in the past when people in EVE had to put much more effort into things and it made them happy! The current “crop” though would just quit, because it’s effort!

The difference between fun and satisfaction is significant. The difference between these two groups of people is even more significant! We’re experiencing the transition from the latter, satisfaction seeking group, to the former … the fun seeking group.

Fun: It’s about the goal, not the journey.
Satisfaction: It’s about the journey, not just the goal.

It’s pretty much killing the game, just like it killed every other game. CCP is trying to do it smart, trying to transition over slowly. Really slowly. There’s at least one huge ass post about exactly this out there too, where it’s pretty much laid out to read.

Nowadays we’re flooded with spoiled assholes thanks to CCP’s decisions going back to Retribution, which was literally Retribution, nerfing the game’s hardcore nature, EVE’s culture and marked the beginning of taking away new players out of experienced veteran hands into literally hundreds of so called “new player corporations” of which the vast majority do exactly JACK ■■■■ for the game.

I could go on and on and on … so I won’t.

*suddenly end of post*

1 Like

I would agree with you if this were any MMO that had separate PvE and PvP “zones”. But this is EVE where the entire EVE universe is a PvP “zone” (few exceptions, but you get the idea). High sec is fairly unique among MMO’s in that maybe it’s a PvE + PvP “zone with rules and consequences”, but that still makes it all PvP. It would be illogical to dispute this as the devs vision for high sec appears to solidly side with gankers. Even their description of CONCORD, a force only for retribution, seems to be taken out of the ganker playbook, even though the game mechanics of protection definitely exist (although only 50% protection as the other 50% relies on the individual). In the end tho, it’s the devs’ game, their vision, their rules…

Given the devs design, it would be like if you signed the waivers to go scuba diving, knowing that there is the chance of getting injured or becoming a snack. You can’t complain if something bad happens, cause you signed off on it. But just like scuba diving, bad happenings in high sec are fairly rare compared to how much traffic goes through there each day. It’s just the perception that there’s a boogeyman hiding behind each gate cause of EVE’s reputation. Personally, in one year I’ve had one gank attempt on me, so if anything, high sec could be a “little” more dangerous it would seem IMHO.

With that said, could CCP do a better job at presenting the “waivers”? Probably. That is where I would fault CCP, if anything. However, this is an MMO, and solo players should know that they have to take extra precautions when starting up any new MMO game, because by definition they are all geared towards group play, so a solo player should always expect that they will be at a disadvantage. Solo players should always do research or at least get a feel for the community once in the game. Just reading rookie help for the first few hours should give plenty of warning about EVE. At this point about 95% of players should know what they are in for.

However, I did do the NPE last year, and if there was a warning about PvP in high sec, it wasn’t memorable. I don’t expect CCP to put up giant biohazard dialogue boxes when a rookie leaves the first station. But CCP could maybe have Aura say something humorous about high sec PvP and the player signs off on it. Or maybe in EVE’s case, dark humor may be more appropriate. :sweat_smile: Perhaps a warning when leaving first station and also another when jumping out of rookie system. This way CCP completely absolves itself of that last 5% of players, and gankers can point to that for the players who still didn’t listen…

As for being defenseless, I agree that’s true, nobody likes being a punching bag, that’s not fun at all. And I’m sure you’ve already seen all the arguments that it’s “your fault” if that happened. However, this is just a game, basically simulating high sec as a bad neighborhood. This appears to be the devs vision and intent when they brought EVE to life from the very beginning. You do have to take setbacks as a lesson on how to do better next time. Just like in a bad neighborhood you do have to take precautions to just not put yourself in a situation for something bad to happen in the first place. But there are also “cops” in high sec as well, and you have to take advantage of that in case something does go down. Such as tanking your ship as much as possible so you can possibly last long enough for them to rescue you, which does happen, if you’re worried about it. But, there’s going to be days where your number comes up, and there was nothing you could do about it. Just like you have to accept loss in PvE when everything goes south, just accept the loss when unexpected PvP happens. Fly what you can afford to lose, and move forward. The chances of getting ganked again in the near future are likely very low. You just gotta look at the game from the right perspective given that EVE is a dark game.

This is another of my “short” responses, sorry for the wall of text, but there seems to be a lot of big concepts flying around of late… :sweat_smile: All I can say is this is just my humble observations of the game’s design.

Unfortunately I got nothing here. There is no data to support the argument in either direction, only CCP may have some metrics on this. Outside forces can also be playing a big part, the gaming industry is only getting more and more competitive and it can be a cruel world out there as well… or it could be none of the above or all the above…

History is fun, and people from the past can be inspirational. :sunglasses:

That was a really informative read, thank you. I agree with pretty much everything. I would also have to say that EVE shouldn’t really be shallow, nor fun/hr, but more about satisfaction. EVE also seems to have been built as a story engine, and some of the unexpected stories can be the most memorable, and is something very much worth the wait when it happens, which is something you may have mentioned in the past as well.

I would have to add that there must be players that shoot npc’s as well, otherwise there would be no economy. Right now most npc involved activities are shallow, so more satisfying mechanics would either need to introduced or players just have to realize it’s merely “fun” and take it for what it is, and then move onto activities of more substance, with the game designed as it is now.

There is a lot to absorb from that link, and I’m not going to pretend I got it all down, but I will stew on it for a bit… :nerd_face:

Back in 2007-2009, last time I played before plex, I vaguely recall something about timecodes, but not sure how popular they were. There were isk spammers galore, but you took your risk if you got scammed, CCP didn’t give a crap if you lost money to a 3rd party of course. But I think point still stands, it appears as back then as now, the majority grinds for their isk. :woman_shrugging:

Timecodes where the plex back then, you bought them through the main website and sold them in a special forum section - then through the account page. It was a prolific then as plex is now.

Hey! Didn’t know there was a 3 reply max per thread, guess I don’t spam enough to have found out sooner… :blush:

I can see your perspective in about everything but this part. You quoted something I said, but I don’t see what problem I was missing, and I’d like to try to understand your viewpoint.

I think there is something I should add here, and which I have been mulling over. The theory of the paradox that EVE is a PvP game at heart, but PvE is it’s foundation. This ground has probably already been trod over many times in these forums, but I still find that pretty fascinating.

PvE is found in every space - WH, null, low, high. All relevant isk is minted from npc sources. Even when a player buys isk with money through PLEX, that isk is just recirculated isk whose source originated from some previous npc. So npc’s are the foundation of EVE’s economy, which itself can be a source of PvP.

With that said, and to try to keep it short, although PvE is important to the game, “Mostly PvErs” should still try to play the game as intended. If you’ve ever seen the movie The Seven Samurai, you see that farmers are also disrespected, even though they should be revered as a valuable resource, as civilization would not exist without them. But this being a game, farmers should be crafty just like in the movie, either be cunning and keep a low profile, or hire, or become, your own samurai and make new stories.

Absolutely; MMO design: give players reasons and ways to interact; stories emerge from this.

Players can exhaust developer authored content (such as the current mission system) faster than new content can be designed. (Nonetheless, I used to enjoy doing some of that, its part of the backstory and economy - it deserves an overhaul.)

The most common highsec PvP victim story is something like “I was surprised, and lost my ship.” Not interesting as a story from either side, and some victims are known to quit the game in frustration. (Is that risk worth the potential player-story reward, from a developer perspective?) Non-consensual PvP doesn’t always telegraph itself, the “unexpected” and therefore more interesting story, can come from the rare cases where a victim can explain how they avoided or escaped an encounter. The attacker also has a story in this case.

Any nerf to make ganking more challenging, could be viewed as CCP attempting to make possible more of those much more interesting stories: “almost got me / almost got the target.”

1 Like

You’re right, of course, that there needs to be people who shoot NPCs. PvPers shoot NPCs too. That’s not the issue. The issues start when there’s an unbalance towards extremism on either side, which is happening now.

Sadly, the modern and or casual player is all about fun, not satisfaction. The vast majority of players nowadays are literally easily manipulated drug addicts, just that no one dares pointing out that it’s actually the case.

If that wasn’t the case, the whole industry wouldn’t continuously try finding new ways of milking them, wouldn’t put emphasis on individuality, fun and quick rewards.

CCP is definitely not going to care about satisfaction as long as it’s legal to abuse the addicts out of their money. This game is ■■■■■■.

It’s scary, really, and it’s going to haunt us all eventually.

:smiley:

2 Likes

Mutaplasmids, RNG loot boxes (‘Agency Support Drop’ could give a booster from level 1-3)- “OMG I just scored something amazing.”

What is extremism and what is unbalance ? When you don’t like it anymore ?

Here, have a nice more bucket of bittervet nonsensical salty tears.
Players play a game because it’s fun for them. YOUR appreciation of their fun is irrelevant.

I don’t like the new “gamble” of mutaplasmids, but if it’s too annoying for me, I will leave the game. And let people who are more interested in it enjoy those new feature.
Is it bad/sad ? Nope, it’s life. The game must adapt or die, and if you don’t adapt with it, your gameplay will die. Complaining how “it was better before” is just allowing you to get an excuse to not adapt. Yes, many things were better before. And many things were worse. It’s a package.

1 Like

Although market forces and recent events may be influencing some of CCP’s decisions unfortunately, there may be some evidence that CCP is trying to hold to their original vision. Like this Trig invasion doesn’t seem to be a total giveaway at least, judging by the threads about ninja salvaging. Maybe…

But it seems like CCP mostly relies on the community to get new players on board to find satisfaction and storytelling in the game. They seem to mostly stay silent on a lot of this, but they may have their reasons for doing so. Converting players from shallow gaming will be an unending quest, but judging by a lot of forum posts, at least you don’t seem to be alone in that endeavor.

I think someone is missing the point made, your talking of 800m ships 1b + that’s ok for farming in some “safe” system or farming burner missions rejecting every other one, I see in chat “these take too long” “can someone help with a mission” when your pimping out your ship, and have spent probably 1 - 1.5b and pick your missions, your not running mission like most people.

200m an hour might be possible, please post the video and I would love to see it, running in any mission hub you will see 2-3 “suspects” at least, people who make a full time commitment to scan and either goad or steal the mission item, in an effort to flag you for pvp (they rarely ever don’t not have some back-up) running missions endlessly to generate this 200m per hr 1 - 1.5b ship is going to have issues unless your in some safe protected system.

Reminds me of Tiller when he ran missions to get some funds, he probably caused more upset for anyone in system wondering if he was going to gank them or run a mission.

Proof ?

rofl.
no time for this.
also it’s not 200M an hour. I can do that easily if I have luck. The interesting data is average value over >10h of farming, including ammos, ganks, failures.

I seen people claim silly figures for LP conversion which they then add to the mission reward total, with the exception of sisters items, whatever implant you get will either sit waiting to be sold (months) or be undercut so quick by the same mission runners trying to convert LP the items become worth a fraction of whats spoken, with the exception of a few burner mission (most require a pretty pimp’d out fit to complete)

The Proof you require is easily found just look at your favourite killboard and you will see plenty of bling being killed mission running, my figure is rather low, the average is trying to run in meta gear or T2 those are the ones I refer to, from what I have seen you have to be in low sec (safe space ie your backyard where your known) to get the best reward LP wise, and to have less interuptions, please show me, the last time I saw someone really working missions was GreenGimp, that’s a while back, Tiller and I think Cropper and a few others I knew at the time.