L4 Missions Need Rewards+

next time instead of making dishonest question, just state your REAL point instead of saying false things.
Because here you are screaming you want attention you don’t deserve.
So I stick to answering your question the way a genuine person could have understood it.

Now you may be salty that I don’t give your the attention you beg for, but I just don’t care about your deep feelings. I’m not responsible for them. I’m not responsible for you. I give you what you deserve.

MY question was very simple : is there a point in trying to get to CSM if you want to change things ? This question is important, because if you can’t change things then all the thing people say “they will do” is just empty words.
I don’t have an answer to this question.
I just don’t know.
Then I ask, because it seems like its a premise for your affirmation, and as such a possible failure in your opinion.

And you tell me the question is wrong.
The question is not wrong. Your answer is, because if you don’t know, then you can just not answer, or answer “I don’t know”. And then you tell me I insist on knowing better ? This dishonest way of thinking of yours tells me again, that you have a vested interested in those opinions. You re trying to disguise reality to make it fit your goal. I don’t know which goal it is, and I don’t really care ; what I know is, you re not a person I should trust on his words. Not because you lack the intellectual ability to follow logical arguments ; but because you lack the self awareness to accept that your opinions may be based on wrong premises, to the point you become aggressive when someone dare suggest it.

in short : you are spoiled, you never had to think about your errors, and now you think you are better than other people without even having an idea of what they are talking about.
Of course I may be completely wrong and you just misunderstood what I wrote, thus answered it with useless aggressiveness and patronizing attitude …

@Desmios_Sanguis

hmm … yea its hard to plex with lvl4s but … its not the fault of plex … its not the fault of lvl4s … its not the fault of … hmm

the thing is there are guys who can pay 4.something mill a plex … so they do and why should others sell cheaper then that?

so in the ned its just a market thing … some sell … many buy … price go up

so what you guess will happen if lvl4s give way more isk as reward? (count loot, salvage and of corse LPs too please)
plex price will not go down … that will not happen … when people can pay more … the pay more so the price goes up …

CCP had 2 or 3 PLEX sales this year … the price on the market didnt go down a lot or for a long time …

there was no subscription sale this year so far … i dont know if one is coming but i recommand you buy a subscription and play without grinding for plex

JuuR

180M+ tag farming l4s in hs… in 750dps ham loki… swap it for paladin and enjoy FAR more. Of course standings with amarr suffer but who cares about being liked by imperialist slaving scum…

Yes, so hard… about 15 hours to plex…

How does Tuesday June 18th 14:00 hours eve time on SiSi sound? I should be back by then. If I am not on time, please excuse me, I will be there but I have no influence on public transportation in our city.

There’s a lot of concepts to unpack here and I’ll try to keep it as brief and on topic as possible.

There is game theory which mostly deals with the rational decisions between players, but I’m more genuinely interested in “fun” theory, what is it that makes video games “fun”. For EVE, that becomes very complicated because of so many paths to take, and the game’s steep learning curve. But personally, I find low and null sec to be rather common style of play in games, PvP free for all, small and large battles. What I think makes EVE rather unique is high sec, this fantastic mixture between law and chaos that I’ve only come across in this game.

In EVE, unless you buy isk with real money, there is this PvE grind that you have to do to accomplish your “goals”. The time spent grinding seems to cause many players to become more vested in their virtual possessions, and therefore the loss may be a bit more painful than otherwise. So along come Lv4 missions, and the multitude of other PvE activities that people can do to acquire these possessions. They have to be designed to be at least a little “fun”, or no one would do them, and EVE’s economy comes to a halt. Also, some of the “fun” can be the satisfaction of finding the most optimized way to grind, so that you can get to the other “fun” much sooner.

But here is where I believe I agree with you, the grinding should not be the end of “fun”, it should be just the beginning, or maybe just a means to an end. I always tell people to not just do one thing in EVE, they should get out and explore as far as their interests can carry them. The people who grind just to grind, I don’t think are getting to the next level of “fun” that EVE has to offer.

You may or may not agree, but I think that if a person is at least aware of the emergent game play in high sec, and enjoys playing even the mouse dodging all the cats (get it?? I can be punny too :rofl:), there can be a thrill in that. And that person is likely even appreciative of the contributions the emergent players give to the game. And I believe high sec is capable of so much more emergent play, but seems to be suffering from years of neglect.

Alongside the theory of the mouse, I think I’ve come across another emergent “fun” from this game, and that is mentoring. The game has a high bar of entry, and there are many people that really enjoy teaching others just how to play the game and that is also part of their “fun”, which even some gankers take part in. Other games have this too, but probably not at EVE’s level.

Aside from the more well known high sec shenanigans, there are many more levels of “fun” I’m sure, but as I’ve said, this is my short response, and I don’t have the answers. I’m still learning EVE, even though I started back in 2007, I took some big breaks, and given my limited time I have to play, my total game hours are probably less than maybe most 1-2year players. However, I’m glad you responded, it’s good have some sound viewpoints on something as complex and unique as EVE.

2 Likes

Cincinnatus

IMO an analysis of “what’s fun about EVE and why” needs to include “what’s not fun about EVE, and why”.

There have been many posts over the years from people attesting to how much fun it is to gank other players. Including some from players who try to gank other gankers.

I can’t remember even one from someone who enjoys being a defenseless target.

Defenseless” is emphasized because (almost) every solo new player knows EVE is a “free-fire PvP” game, and they expect to be shot at …

… so the kind of thing you’d hope for in the game is a way to ensure that even a “pure PvE player” (terminology that temporarily doesn’t really exist because of an ongoing dispute based on a claim that “everything in EVE is PvP”, but hopefully you know what I mean :slight_smile:
can have fun running away, despite simultaneously being one of the targets in a “target-rich environment”.
.
.
An aside: IMO the answer to the question “why does EVE have only a few 10K’s of players?” isn’t because"it’s tough" (which it obviously isn’t), but that it’s limited by the number of “pure PvE players” who enter, play for a while (and many have fun while they play), and leave.

For EVE to grow, it needs more happy targets.

(BTW - I knew about Cincinnatus before I asked about the “M” (history lessons in school long ago :), looked him up on wikipedia to refresh my memory, and didn’t find a reference to anyone whose name started with an “M”, hence the question. Thanks for answering)

Its a pain in the ass not being able to access the largest empire in space actually.

That being said you can turbo charge that tag far in FW, a couple of the level4s will spawn as long as the named is on grid.

Get an MTU down and couple buddies (because a pirate is going to come looking) and you can turbo farm those tags I have made billions that way. That and I had a plain jane level 4 domi in bumble-low for a while

Related to “fun per hour”, which is a rather bad direction to think in …

What? The timecode bazaar was never a thing?

pretty incredible how some people think, was it something these people learned as a young child, if you cry enough about something you might get it, everyone else has an ice lolly and i want one now attitude, just because well, whaaaaaa! :sob: it’s not fair.

get a grip on yourselves, you get out what you put in and it should never be any other way.

increase rewards in L4s so the poor people can plex their account and never pay for EVE.

cuz that’s what this stupid thread is about and nothing more.

i’ve lived in every part of space in EVE and never had an issue making isk, you make what you can and fly smart.

so NO op, NO to L4 mission rewards increasing beyond what they are.

no, they do not

If anything, they give too much isk.

1 Like

If you are not having fun, DO SOMETHING ELSE.

The missions are only there as a tutorial, it’s time to try PvP.

no, they do not

oh, I find it fun to go through gate camps… did it so many times already that I can state with confidence that this “defensless” target is closer to uncatchable if done properly.

:smiley:

Mate … I’ve written so many words about this topic over the years, so allow me to teach you a perspective or two about what’s going on. You’re making the same mistake most people do, pretty much all day every day. People don’t put other people into the center of all problems regarding people.

Or, in other words: It’s always someone, or something, else.

  1. You assume rational decisions.
  2. You see the problem in the game, instead of the player.

These players always cared about their virtual possessions. It’s not about the amount of effort that’s being put in, they literally are like this. Nowadays it is far more easier to make shitloads of money, than it was in the past. Back then you had to mine for a week to get a ■■■■■■■ cruiser and a battleship was a HUGE achievement!

These guys from the past weren’t farmers. They all were pirates at heart. They were pioneers. They worked for their ■■■■, they liked it and all of us wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for them!

People nowadays have been raised to be like this. By games, TV, the whole “system”, that puts seriously unhealthy amounts of emphasis on individuality, all in the name of profits.

  • Remember the increase of farming games and korean MMOs specifically designed to be like this.

  • Remember way over a decade of games selling themselves behind “be the hero”, “be the legend”, “save the princess”, “protect the castle”. All these games were essentially targeting the same group of people. Just days ago I’ve realized a very fitting term for these carebears, whiteknights and farmers in general:

Disney Prince.

You know, in the past this game didn’t have any disney princes. Even though they had people who did not shoot anyone, those guys were more like @Jonah_Gravenstein, who enjoys the fact that EVE is actually a dangerous game and that you have to watch your own back. It’s a space game just like in the movies!

I absolutely believe that many people, who we never heard of, played EVE because it was dangerous everywhere, thus far more like scifi space movies, which is pretty much all we know about living in space. It makes no sense to assume otherwise, because EVE was advertised exactly as a cut-throat, hard to learn, full loot, no holds barred PvP game.

It’s still not too far in the past when people in EVE had to put much more effort into things and it made them happy! The current “crop” though would just quit, because it’s effort!

The difference between fun and satisfaction is significant. The difference between these two groups of people is even more significant! We’re experiencing the transition from the latter, satisfaction seeking group, to the former … the fun seeking group.

Fun: It’s about the goal, not the journey.
Satisfaction: It’s about the journey, not just the goal.

It’s pretty much killing the game, just like it killed every other game. CCP is trying to do it smart, trying to transition over slowly. Really slowly. There’s at least one huge ass post about exactly this out there too, where it’s pretty much laid out to read.

Nowadays we’re flooded with spoiled assholes thanks to CCP’s decisions going back to Retribution, which was literally Retribution, nerfing the game’s hardcore nature, EVE’s culture and marked the beginning of taking away new players out of experienced veteran hands into literally hundreds of so called “new player corporations” of which the vast majority do exactly JACK ■■■■ for the game.

I could go on and on and on … so I won’t.

*suddenly end of post*

1 Like

I would agree with you if this were any MMO that had separate PvE and PvP “zones”. But this is EVE where the entire EVE universe is a PvP “zone” (few exceptions, but you get the idea). High sec is fairly unique among MMO’s in that maybe it’s a PvE + PvP “zone with rules and consequences”, but that still makes it all PvP. It would be illogical to dispute this as the devs vision for high sec appears to solidly side with gankers. Even their description of CONCORD, a force only for retribution, seems to be taken out of the ganker playbook, even though the game mechanics of protection definitely exist (although only 50% protection as the other 50% relies on the individual). In the end tho, it’s the devs’ game, their vision, their rules…

Given the devs design, it would be like if you signed the waivers to go scuba diving, knowing that there is the chance of getting injured or becoming a snack. You can’t complain if something bad happens, cause you signed off on it. But just like scuba diving, bad happenings in high sec are fairly rare compared to how much traffic goes through there each day. It’s just the perception that there’s a boogeyman hiding behind each gate cause of EVE’s reputation. Personally, in one year I’ve had one gank attempt on me, so if anything, high sec could be a “little” more dangerous it would seem IMHO.

With that said, could CCP do a better job at presenting the “waivers”? Probably. That is where I would fault CCP, if anything. However, this is an MMO, and solo players should know that they have to take extra precautions when starting up any new MMO game, because by definition they are all geared towards group play, so a solo player should always expect that they will be at a disadvantage. Solo players should always do research or at least get a feel for the community once in the game. Just reading rookie help for the first few hours should give plenty of warning about EVE. At this point about 95% of players should know what they are in for.

However, I did do the NPE last year, and if there was a warning about PvP in high sec, it wasn’t memorable. I don’t expect CCP to put up giant biohazard dialogue boxes when a rookie leaves the first station. But CCP could maybe have Aura say something humorous about high sec PvP and the player signs off on it. Or maybe in EVE’s case, dark humor may be more appropriate. :sweat_smile: Perhaps a warning when leaving first station and also another when jumping out of rookie system. This way CCP completely absolves itself of that last 5% of players, and gankers can point to that for the players who still didn’t listen…

As for being defenseless, I agree that’s true, nobody likes being a punching bag, that’s not fun at all. And I’m sure you’ve already seen all the arguments that it’s “your fault” if that happened. However, this is just a game, basically simulating high sec as a bad neighborhood. This appears to be the devs vision and intent when they brought EVE to life from the very beginning. You do have to take setbacks as a lesson on how to do better next time. Just like in a bad neighborhood you do have to take precautions to just not put yourself in a situation for something bad to happen in the first place. But there are also “cops” in high sec as well, and you have to take advantage of that in case something does go down. Such as tanking your ship as much as possible so you can possibly last long enough for them to rescue you, which does happen, if you’re worried about it. But, there’s going to be days where your number comes up, and there was nothing you could do about it. Just like you have to accept loss in PvE when everything goes south, just accept the loss when unexpected PvP happens. Fly what you can afford to lose, and move forward. The chances of getting ganked again in the near future are likely very low. You just gotta look at the game from the right perspective given that EVE is a dark game.

This is another of my “short” responses, sorry for the wall of text, but there seems to be a lot of big concepts flying around of late… :sweat_smile: All I can say is this is just my humble observations of the game’s design.

Unfortunately I got nothing here. There is no data to support the argument in either direction, only CCP may have some metrics on this. Outside forces can also be playing a big part, the gaming industry is only getting more and more competitive and it can be a cruel world out there as well… or it could be none of the above or all the above…

History is fun, and people from the past can be inspirational. :sunglasses:

That was a really informative read, thank you. I agree with pretty much everything. I would also have to say that EVE shouldn’t really be shallow, nor fun/hr, but more about satisfaction. EVE also seems to have been built as a story engine, and some of the unexpected stories can be the most memorable, and is something very much worth the wait when it happens, which is something you may have mentioned in the past as well.

I would have to add that there must be players that shoot npc’s as well, otherwise there would be no economy. Right now most npc involved activities are shallow, so more satisfying mechanics would either need to introduced or players just have to realize it’s merely “fun” and take it for what it is, and then move onto activities of more substance, with the game designed as it is now.

There is a lot to absorb from that link, and I’m not going to pretend I got it all down, but I will stew on it for a bit… :nerd_face:

Back in 2007-2009, last time I played before plex, I vaguely recall something about timecodes, but not sure how popular they were. There were isk spammers galore, but you took your risk if you got scammed, CCP didn’t give a crap if you lost money to a 3rd party of course. But I think point still stands, it appears as back then as now, the majority grinds for their isk. :woman_shrugging: