Thats the thing with L4s, my first try was with Web or TP, then without. Volleys to kill destroyers and up are the same. The only time Web reduced amount of volleys to kill a target is on frigs, but the time web takes to slow a target for damage application to increase Per target, T1 missiles and precision script kills them just as fast (over the length of missions). In the end, it wasnt worth sacrificing the range.
I agree Marauders is way “cheaper” to run since a regular T2 fit is good enough with bastion. But jesus christ they are slow and boring. Flying fast is fun, also they were cheaper back then i think, full faction/complex fit was barely 1.4B.
But my point is, Tengu is not “not viable”. Thats just bonkers, Tengu is my waifu man, dont trash-talk her like that.
A Rattesnake is also pretty op for level 4’s; remember it’s not just about damage, but application and the rattler with sentries and cruise (and a mjd) can go in, mjd then hit everything relatively easily at 100/80km away… one shotting frigs with the sentries and hitting large targets with the cruise. I’d probably go with rattler for speed runs in dangerous security.
Golems great if you want to just sit there and tank rats tho…
A Drake can absolutely handle lvl 4’s, it’s just that it’s going to be painfully slow at it, especially if you’re used to the 1000+ dps most fits running lvl 4’s on a regular basis should be punching out, and that’s before you get into the overkill that is a marauder.
Hello, just wanted to give you some response after intensive testing.
I have run several L4s in your Fit and even did (as a challenge) the Amarr Epic Arc which contains several high-DPS rooms with sheer amounts of EM-damage. I left the fitting “as is”, means Invul+MWD instead of specific EM hardeners.
My Results:
For blitzing L4s its absolutely fine. It has way faster movement and can compete with Marauders or FactionBS in completion time if the mission is easy blitzable (aka only very few key ships/structures to destroy). It definitely makes more fun than a marauder.
For missions that require a lot of shooting, it can’t touch the performance of a Marauder, especially those with spawns at 80+km. Assault or Blockade is done like 50% faster in a Marauder. Their Range/MJD-ability and Damage is just too good.
The above hint to switch tank to EM for missions against a lot of laser-firepower is extremely useful. I tried to tank the high-EM-DPS Amarr Epic Arc missions with Invul+MWD and it really challenged the fit to it’s limits. I had to warp out several times, the NPCs are able to track a 990m-Sig cruiser even at 1400m/s pretty well.
Will try to build a similar Legion-Fit, a HAM-Legion has less range and a bit less total DPS, but freely adaptable damage type, eats a lot less ammo, has a smaller signature and higher speed. Might perform comparable well.
I would have to agree. I’ve never seen anyone try and pretend correctly fitted Tengu doesn’t sleepwalk through L4’s. It’s one of the primary aspects they’re designed for. The math doesn’t match viability.
Typhoon, Loki… you skipped two ships that easily do L4 missions. There is also Praxis. I have plenty of experience with L4s in HAM Loki and find its performance satisfying. Not being locked to kinetic and application bonus is advantage over tengu (try doing kinetic to elite amarr navy ships… with 90+% resists you may as well shoot blanks, at leats you won’t be pretending).
Give HAM Loki a try It is often forgotten as people always seem to think “autocannon loki”.
L4 missions are easy in it, and has no big holes in resist profile (though thermal and kinetic are holes). Dunno about blitzing, but plenty of anti-amarr missions are worth clearing - loot is great (tags!!!), salvage is great (armor plates, nanite compounds, tangled power circuits - expensive things). Application bonus helps punching down. Tengu being locked to kinetic for damage bonus is its weakness. Angels may have secondary hole as kinetic but 50% ROF bonus on nova beats performance of 50% bonus to kinetic missiles (as both result in the same DPS output, with loki being able to pick missiles freely). I do use two hydraulic bay II for missile velocity so that I have the projection of 31km on rages (55 with javs, I don’t use factions but it is 37; 3% missile projection implant).
For blitzing tengu will be much better. For clearing… not so sure. And I doubt either will beat marauders, but this may depend on mission. HAM Legion should also work.
In fact any ship you can fit for running C3 combat sites should be more than capable of handling L4 missions.
Indeed. Tengu is perfectly viable for L4 missions. And so is HAM Loki (I can vouch for this one from my personal experience - it works well). And likely HAM Legion as well.
Do you really have 56km on rages or only range indicator says so? Hydra set increases missile flight time, but if it is under full second then only a percentage of missiles will have that range.
Rattlesnake is only half a missile ship, without good drone skills in Heavy/Sentry and Drone support skills high, it will not be amongst ‘the best’. Even with high skills, its a convenient but not very fast missionrunner.
Machariel is not a missile ship at all.
From the Marauders, only the Golem is a missile ship. And yes, it does it’s job fine.
Sorry, I skimmed the title too quickly (I agree with all your points). For full clears, Golem. Blitzing, probably a Barghest. If you’re looking for something tanky/idiot-proof - the Rattlesnake fits the bill (with the damage bonus it still gets the equivalent of 7.5 launchers).
Isn’t it more like 700~750dps-ish, and that only with rages that have low range, i.e. only on paper?
This has 957 dps with drones and overheat, which isn’t feasible for a prolonged combat, and I can’t come up with a fit that has more dps unless I bling it up.
[Drake, Max DPS]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
[Empty Med slot]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Multispectrum Shield Hardener II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]
Acolyte II x5
Maybe you hint me which part of on-paper-dps maximization I’m missing out?
It is often forgotten as people always seem to think “autocannon loki”.