L4s in a Vedmak

(Fluffy Moe) #1

Hi all

So I have been doing a lot of L4s lately in a Vedmak and thought I’d share some of stuff for anyone interested if they’re looking for a new ship or just something different to do. I focused on L4s because they are good and well established known difficulty benchmark based on which any player can gauge themselves for other content as well. Thoughts, opinions all welcome, just keep it civil.

My setup is as follows

Character skills: All level 5 except Disintegrator Specialization which is at level 4.

Relevant Implants:
‘Squire’ Capacitor Systems Operation E0-605
Ogdin’s Eye Coordination Enhancer
‘Squire’ Capacitor Management EM-805
‘Lancer’ Gunnery RF-905
‘Noble’ Hull Upgrades HG-1005

Boosters: None

The fit, total fit + ship cost 734 Mil as of this time, so not too bad, well under 1 bil. Implants not included in ship costs as its a general turret boat set of implants that I use on many different ships and not Vedmak specific.


Reactive Armor Hardener
Entropic Radiation Sink II
‘Meditation’ Medium Armor Repairer I
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Thukker Large Cap Battery
Tracking Computer II
Dark Blood Cap Recharger
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II
Small Remote Armor Repairer II
Small Remote Armor Repairer II
Small Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Nanobot Accelerator II
Medium Nanobot Accelerator II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Salvage Drone I x5
Infiltrator II x5

Tracking Speed Script x1
Occult M x1794
Mystic M x807
Nanite Repair Paste x154

1st off, its a very fun ship to play with. Its not optimal ISK / time wise, but it does still OK and its just a blast to play. Awesome ship mechanics, awesome animations, its one of the very few ships where I actually play zoomed in, in the 3rd person view just to see the ship and the fight and what it does etc. the animations are done well, the way it fires, how it goes into and comes out of warp etc. reminds me of driving a muscle car or a sports car.

As far as its capabilities go, I was able to do every L4 in the above fit except the Angel Extravaganza bonus room. I had to warp out on it. In contrast, I can do it in a Gila with some fancy flying, and in Loki and Tengu with ease. I most likely would be able to do it if I blinged it heavily and / or used boosters, but I did not want to go down that road as I wanted to see what this ship can actually do.

If blinged and with boosters, or maybe just faction specific hardeners, it may be able to do Anomic Base burners, especially ones vs EMP and thermal dmg types, but as it stands now its just too expensive for me to test and I’m too lazy to go try it out on Sisi. So if someone else wants to, go for it.

The disintegrator is a very interesting weapon. I initially started using 3 different ammo types for it, the T1 long range, Mystic M and Occult M. The long range T1 ammo was just way sub par and I dumped it. Overall I settled for using Mystic and Occult, roughly about 40% Mystic 60% Occult per large mission doing full clears. I ended up using the Mystic ammo on frigates, destroyers and some cruisers at range around 20-30 km, while occult on anything where I got close. Ammo is expensive and for large missions and full clears expect to use total of around 1k-1200 rounds.

I also initially started with some smartbombs for extra DPS, doesn’t work out well at all due to their very limited range. And I tried out a faction web, doesn’t work out well either simply because web ranges are just too short + a lot of small targets die in 1-2 cycles anyways so taking the extra time to web things is just way too impractical and unnecessary, far better off with extra tracking.

Thing of note, you do need the extra tracking, even with its already high tracking its not enough. A single missed cycle on disintegrator resets your DPS to base, so you need to make sure it sticks like glue, takes some practice.

Vedmak is a fast ship, if you orbit too tight or too wide and dip in / out of orbit, your disintegrator will miss and reset your DPS. If you get too much transversal, likewise. I found my orbit preference to be 5000 and 7500 m and transversal not to exceed 650 in order to reliably maintain disintegrator contact. If I hit 700+ transversal or got too close or too far on orbit, it would miss a cycle. This is with 67.82 effective tracking.

I went with AB over MWD because Vedmak has a super low sig for a cruiser, only 110m so I wanted to take full advantage of it, as well as I didn’t want to gain even more transversal while orbiting / maneuvering.

Its a very cap hungry ship, and I do mean very. Battery and recharger or full set of rigs is a must unless you have pocket logi feeding you cap non-stop. Cap boosters are a no go, the ammo already takes a lot of cargo room and you’ll find yourself re-docking mid mission for more booster charges so its just too impractical.

Tank leaves something to be desired. It has a pretty borked resistance profile with basically 2 holes in it instead of 1 like most ships making it difficult to fit while maintaining decent DPS. Its armor bonus is too small for the loss of so much shield.

The extra high utility slots can have their uses. You can fit anything you want in it, its good to have at least 1 small armor rep for drones though. I have fitted 3 of them, on some missions I just set the drones to agro and let them lose, following them and targeting and repairing as needed, I was only shooting at medium and large targets.

DPS is fairly high with Occult ammo at shortest ranges. With my setup it shoots up to 13 km. On a fully spooled up disintegrator once you get pass shields you can get some really big hits. Pass that Mystic shoots up to 31 km, but it does a lot less, overall I’d say maybe 60% of what you can do with Occult. There is one more ammo type that shoots pretty far, but its so dinky its completely pointless to use it at all, might as well free up the cargo space for more Occult / Mystic.

Overall I highly recommend giving Vedmak a try for anyone that’s looking for something to break the monotony and have some fun. It does fairly decent at L4s and will do fairly well in any equivalent level difficulty content. It is a very fun ship.

There are some spots I wish it would improve. We still don’t have faction entropic sinks, still don’t have rigs for precursor turrets. I do not know if they are or are not in the works, or maybe there are T2 or full faction Triglavian ships in the works, who knows. To me it seems the biggest issue with this ship other then building materials is its lack of tank, mainly that screwed up resist profile. It would have been much better if it had just 1 big hole like most ships vs 2 mid size holes.

The 2nd thing I found lacking is the powergrid. Outside of niche fits and niche roles where you are in fleet and have someone else feeding you cap, you have to have a cap battery or rigs or something or you just won’t be able to function. And when you do equip those, then there is not enough powergrid left for other stuff. For example, I would have loved to fit 1 mid size T2 smartbomb + 1 mid size T2 remote rep, but can’t. Had to scale down to small due to that lack of powergrid.

Also its side role bonusses, they should have included a nosferatu instead of neutralizer bonus in there, or in addition to. Would have worked out much better for this ship and made perfect sense from lore, role perspective etc.

Hopefully we’ll see some more people around in Vedmaks for all sorts of things.

(Dread Saboteur) #2

Fly a HAC

(Billy Sanchezo) #3

Oh woah, that’s some quality text here. And even with all those arguments put to good use, I still have a basic question : why ?

HAC are indeed interesting ships for Missions, but how are they compared to a Vedmak ? What are the strong points for each one of them, the advantages and disadvantages ?

(Fluffy Moe) #4

I have. I have done most content in most ship types over the years and I consistantly use L4s as a sort of benchmark, especially the Angel Extravaganza bonus room. Any ship that is not faction specific fit and can still do it with ease can also solo the epic arcs, albeit with some warp out and return on some of the final fights, and can also do any of the more difficult DED sites in LS / NS. Any ship that struggles or is unable to complete it will by default not be able to handle the said content by itself.

I did it out of curiosity and for the fun of it and despite the drawbacks of the Vedmak it did not disappoint in the fun department. I think I will stick with it for a few weeks or so, maybe more and try it out on more content. The way it handles is certainly different enough to keep me interested. And of course a Leshak will absolutely obliterate the content, but I prefer fast ships over clunky / slow ones whenever and wherever I can.

IMHO the biggest advantage HACs have is their tank, especially if you match their natural resists to the mission type, you basically don’t need any hardeners at all when you do that. HACs got about as boring as Gilas though I love both.

As far Vedmaks go, I think my biggest dissapointment with them is that they are one of the worst ships to do Abyss in. Its still possible, there is a vid up on youtube with a guy doing a T5 in a Vedmak, but hes super heavily blinged and does not get any of the tougher spawns, only the easy stuff.

To me it makes perfect sense from lore perspective that Vedmaks should be the meta for Abyss sites, but they aren’t, very disappointed in CCP about that.

(Mina Sebiestar) #5

Well you still don’t have their gear(faction dmg mods etc) rigs implants too,lore wise you are using"fake" new eden tech not triglavian stuff.

100-150 dps alone would bump up its performance L4 or abyssal sites

(Fluffy Moe) #6

You are correct. However, there has been no sign from any CCP whatsoever about any of this. So until there is something my thoughts on it remain as they are.

(Billy Sanchezo) #7

Im going to speculate hard, but on the EVE Online Update page concerning the upcoming Winter Expansion, both pictures concerning said expansion and the More Balance! article use Triglavians or Abyssal Deadspace related pictures, might concern them. And the Into the Abyss expansion is still quite recent, CCP had the time to analyse player feedbacks.

(Marcus Gideon) #8

I’m a big fan of the Vedmak myself. It’s way better looking than the pug nosed Frig and BS. And I’d love to score a Tiamat just so I can fly around cloaked. But they just aren’t feasible for PvE use unless something is done about the ammo costs. It’s ridiculous to spend that much per shot fired when you could spend that much on an everlasting Laser Crystal instead.

A few things I noticed about your post, however.

Unless there was a patch I missed, this is flat out wrong. DPS doesn’t reset unless the gun stops cycling. Even if you miss with a cycle or two, the DPS continues to build, and the next one that does connect will just do that much more damage than before.

So first off, the reason you need extra tracking is b/c you’re only using the T2 ammo, which both nerf your tracking in exchange for their perks. I’d suggest only using Mystic for longer ranges, and Tetryon instead of Occult once you get up close. That will definitely help with the close range tracking issues.

And tossing a Smartie on there was a good idea. I use those for picking off the Frigates, rather than trying to hit them with guns or drones.

Looking at your fit, I’d probably consider swapping the 3rd Sink for a 2nd EANM instead. And swap the Storyline Repper for a Faction. That should help with your resists and reps.

As for Cap stability, swap the Thukker battery for a Republic one. And swap one of the Nano Accel rigs for another Aux Nano Pump. The reason you’re so Cap hungry is b/c you’re making the Repper work faster, not harder. If it’s cycling faster, it’s burning more Cap. The ANP makes it rep better even if it’s cycling a little slower, so it’s more efficient and less hungry.

Something like this…

[Vedmak, Vedmak fit]

True Sansha Medium Armor Repairer
Reactive Armor Hardener
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
True Sansha Cap Recharger
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Tetryon Exotic Plasma M
True Sansha Small EMP Smartbomb
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I

Infiltrator II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

(Anderson Geten) #9

with a thukker cap batt, you have enough spare pwr to add a medium scoped nos and thus be cap stable at close range.

Then FWIW a web seems better than a tracking computer once you can get in range. a fed nav web goes 14km, which is more than the occult range and just under tetryon range.

(Fluffy Moe) #10

Too much DPS loss for my liking, also, did you notice the T1 ammo is actually way more expensive then the T2s ? I was kinda shocked actually just by how much.

Tried it, completely not worth it, huge DPS loss vs very low resists gains cause its a 3rd resist mod.

Yea I understand what you mean. But I need that HPS / cap ratio, thats the thing. Its also why I went with meditation instead of faction as you said. It is also why I went with nano accelerators over nanopumps, nanopumps gave me too little raw HPS. I actually tried a faction rep, this gives me more comfortable play and I still end up with plenty of cap leftover, around 30-40% so I have space to be neuted, which is nice, and the thukker battery has highest resist stat to boot and I have a few of them leftover from my LP farm so it was free.

With the set up I have I get around 75+ ( I forgot the exact number) HPS while retaining 30-40% cap, and this is full stable, all modules running, which you kinda have to do in this ship. Alternating tank and prop mod won’t work here cause then you get super crap for DPS cause can’t use occult, can’t close with targets quick enough.

I doubt I will experiment more with the rigs and reps until I run into something that requires bling, at that point if I decide to go deadspace I’ll have a whole bunch of other options open up to me. But for now this is perfectly sufficient.

My tank disappointment stands from the general ship design standpoint. Basically they gave this ship 2 shallow holes instead of 1 deep one, then gave it some extra armor for far too much shield loss. the low sig kinda helps but because its mainly a brawler often times you still get hit and sig doesn’t matter because you have to get up close and personal. I think they gave it too much and or too many penalties in different areas for having just some extra armor, the crappy double hole resist profile included in those penalties.

Also, the DPS is sufficient, but I am not willing to scale down on it. If anything it needs to go up some more IMHO especially on the spooled up end. if I had faction sinks or a rig it’d be good. That is exactly whats missing here. I’m definitely not dumping a sink, too much DPS loss. Heh, I was thinking even add 4th one and use rigs for resits, but it works out to be crap unfortunately.

Did you know you can actually open the ingame simulator while in combat and watch it as it spools up to get some exact numbers ? this is how I came to conclusion it “resets” when I miss, but that is not entirely correct. To be precise, according to the numbers, it basically goes back one cycle instead of forward, but not all the way down, then resumes going up, its kinda weird. I highly recommend you get a target, like a structure or something with a ton of hitpoints so it takes like 5 minutes or so to take out and do that. Watch those numbers.

The tracking penalty I have offset by the tracking comp to where its effectively at 67+ so its not too bad, just had to watch my transversals. Once I worked it out and got my maneuvering down its all good. It was just kinda weird, different from otehr ships where you either MWD in range and turn it off and not care much for transversal, or it just doesn’t come into play as very few ships in the game move this fast with an AB. Phantasm and a couple others, but I don’t remember having issues like this on Phantasm, not sure why. Either way that is solved by flying, player execution.

Its nice to see someone else is into these ships though, cause they are awesome.

(Anize Oramara) #11

It would be pretty easy (but ultimately boring) do accomplish this. The feature (or gimmick) of Triglavian ships is the damage ramp up. The best way to make use of or rely on that is structure bashing or otherwise single super tanked or super repping BB.

A fully maxed Vedmark with Hammer IIs and no smartbombs is capable of close to 1170 EXP/THE damage once spooled up (102 seconds) with 3 damage mods.

I haven’t tested all ships but there might be some blaster T2 cruisers that can get more than that? Rage HAM Augmented Gila?

But if you had a big target with 0 EXP/THE resists with a 1100 dps tank but low EHP then the Vedmark would be great :wink:.

(Anize Oramara) #12

I’ve been running T3 abyssals and put together a theoretical Triglavian fit for T3s (Firestorms probabaly). I based it on the cerberus (dark) and Sacrilege (firestorm) fits I know is perfectly safe in T3s in case some of the build decisions might seem a little weird. It can be blinged and implanted a bunch more but it should run T3s without loss. A bit overly Vulnerable to neuts though I think.

It’s an interesting (and pretty) ship and I’m pretty excited at the thought of a more HAC like T2 version although I don’t know if that will ever exist (man can dream).

[Vedmak, Test3]

Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis 10MN Afterburner

Heavy Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

(Fluffy Moe) #13

IMHO in order for the Vedmak to become the Abyss meta all they would have to do is give it a resist bonus and a little bit of a cap bonus either volume or regen would do.

As far as its DPS goes, its OK. My best cold DPS cruiser is a Tengu, comes in well over 1400, but that is taking into account its kinetic damage bonus. Non kinetic was still something like 1170ish if I remember correctly, and thats cold, not overheated, without boosters or implants and still including a very nice tank on the ship. If I were to add boosters and implants onto it … Hehehehe

I ran some pirate content in that beast.

There are indeed plenty of faction cruisers that can beat a Vedmak. Augmented HAM Gila does 1050+ if I remember correctly and thats actually with just drone amps without Hivas. Most of us fly RLML cause they don’t require additional missile precision mods to hit their targets and have a considerably longer range then HAMS. But if I was to go for pure DPS, I’d go HAMS on it and at least 1, maybe 2 Hivas instead of 3x drone amps. The Hivas might actually put it above 1100, not sure.

I also got some ubber DPS Vigilant set ups and some otehr ones that went well over 1k, I forgot which they were though.

(Scryptic Menzies) #14

Hi Moe! Thanks for the interesting post! I also want to commend you for your efforts to keep forum threads civil :slight_smile:

How would rate the larger Leshak for L4s, compared to a Rattlesnake?

(Fluffy Moe) #15

I don’t have all my skills for the Leshak at 5s and unfortunately don’t plan to have them for a long while as there are other things I want to train on both my combat characters.

I tried it out briefly with T1 turret and ammo and it did pretty well but I ended up using drones a lot for small targets to the point that I put a Tracking Link on the ship and used medium drones for frigs. So had some difficulties hitting small targets at point blank range.

I think it will turn out to be a very high DPS ship with T2 turret and ammo but it will have even more issues hitting small targets at short range as the T2 ammo gives tracking penalty. Long range is pretty awesome though.

it will be a long while before I come back to it. I don’t want to jump to wrong conclusions so have to wait for all the skills, then try different fits, see how it all works out for a wide variety of content.

In the Vedmak I have done some escalations and some 6/10 sites. Most went smooth except for 1 where I got neuted webbed and scrammed at the same time by a ton of ships that spawned right next to me, barely got out of it with less then half my hull intact.

Also adjusted the fit a bit, put 3 small remote reps in the highs for drone repair as there was a lot of drone agro.

(Anize Oramara) #16

Leshak has I think the highest subcap dps once spooled up (with very shirt range though) and can make use of the new (limited quantity) subverted medium drones. It’s still 110 seconds for it to spool up though so it’ll never reach that dps in almost any PVE content.

T2 Vedmak with T2 resist profile and extra cap would be really interesting. What would be even more interesting would be a faster firing (or bigger multiplier jumps), lower max multiplier “light” weapon for PvE. Say only 100% max multiplier instead of 150% but spools up in half the time OR goes up by 10% instead of 5% each cycle

(erg cz) #17

Once upon a time I left null for good, cause I hate multiboxing as well as cap ships and with single char I could not break tank of 9/10 angel boss rat. Now with Leshak I have a hope to be bale to succeed in my favorite playstyle. Which is awesome. Considering cost of abyss ammunition there is no other point to use Leshaks in PvE, IMHO. Killing Boss structures in null
And I totally do not see any use of Vedmak or Damavik in PvE all together. At least in their current state. ISK/hour/efficiency is so low due to additional ammo costs.

(Fluffy Moe) #18

I’m so glad you brought that up. I think I would like to see both variations actually. One that does less DPS after reaching its spool up time but spools up faster and has even better tracking, while the other that reaches even more DPS but takes even longer to spool up and has tracking penalties to boot.

The 1st would be focused more on general use ships, especially vs small size targets while the latter would be focused vs extremely large targets and couldn’t hit the small ones almost at all.

Alternatively, they could even introduce low slot modules that alter these weapons in such ways.

(Fluffy Moe) #19

Its fun. Extremely fun. IMHO best ever so far in all my years I have played Eve. The ammo costs should start going down some and settle after this months update as the building material drop rates from Abyss are getting an increase. It may take a while for them to fully hit the market, distribute, and prices to come down. But they are going to come down.

I should also point out that despite using about 4-6 mil worth of ammo per large mission or DED site I still come well ahead for it to be a non factor. And on small missions such as The Duo of Death for example, where there are not many targets, it becomes completely irrelevant. the mid size missions are of course in middle.

So averaged out its not as bad as it seems, since its only the large clears that end up costing a lot, the small and mid size content remains as is or has relatively low costs.

(erg cz) #20

That is theonly thing that matters in EVE. Or at least should. You almost got me into vedmak :wink: