Rewards mean more than just amount, as I’ve been saying in this thread, low sec has some nice rewards, my offensive plexing 5 mil isk Atron made me more isk than my 800 mil isk Rattlesnake can in null (after converting LP at the right time), but I use my rattlesnake more because the isk is liquid and thus instant.
But also (and like I was saying above), Low sec is just damn annoying to play and live in. It has much of the annoying things of high sec (omg neutral alts running missions lol) with none of the safety.
I really think addressing some of these annoyances is better than trying to stuff in more rewards. Rewards have been added almost non-stop since 2009. For example,when I started with Faction warfare (when the feature launched) there were no rewards for just pvping in FW, now you get lp for everything.
As much as I pick over things here I do actually agree with you overall. See bottom for details.
Great post BTW, love the examples. Citing sources is best Eve posting tactic [quote=“Jenn_aSide, post:50, topic:32589”]
Here is a video of someone making more isk in a Jackdaw than you can make a carrier in null. (even with the changes to the jackdaw since then, this still works, but for safety/travel purposes a Rail Hecate is better now even though it does the wrong primary damage for Minnie missions)
This lvl 5 mission guide works. My set up (3 Archons in 3 different stations, the lvl 5 agent is in the system in the middle of the constellation, use a Leopard to shuttle from station to station so you never have to jump a carrier through a gate/cyno) in total cost less than 7 billion isk yet I can make close to 500 million isk per hour in LP and Tags (selling tags to buy orders and getting 450 isk per lp , going to Dodixie and buying implants to sell).
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The first case is kinda the exception that proves my point here. You have an activity that’s been made extremely low risk by players combined with very high payout and the end result is no more meaningful PvP interaction in Low than we had before. In fact you can find an almost endless trickle of complaining about FWar farming on various forums, blogs, and subreddits. I didn’t include FWar in my examples because the payout there varies over time fairly heavily and there are other tradeoffs involved in running in FWar that turn off players beyond the normal High/Low/Null discussion.
Level 5 missions is an example of higher payout for overall higher risk and it’s fairly niche. Also it’s harder to get the value out of the system than Anom running which simply pays raw ISK.
I’ve generally found mission values to be fairly inflated especially for blitzing. Also the LP markets right now are kinda depressed so I wouldn’t be surprised if this is only on par with a Carrier ratting in Null on average, especially with the variability in mission payouts.
I’m honestly not 100% sure though and figuring out an exact value is more math and testing than I care to do.
Wormholes have fluctuated quite a bit since the nerfs. Right now the problem with Wormholes is that they almost require a group to be really profitable and after you’ve run your sites you either need to spend a while rolling and be very careful doing it or go to bed for the night. Wormholes are great if you only play a few hours a day with people on a similar schedule, but not so much if you’re super active.
The problem with Burners, especially for newer players, is that having effective setups to run all Burner missions is really SP intensive compared to Incursions, Level 4 missions, and it’s probably about on par with a Carrier since last time I checked you need like 3 different races plus a couple T2 frigates at 4s and 5s to run all the available Burners efficiently (I honestly don’t remember what the Cruiser sized ones use these days but I’m assuming something T2, T3, or faction).
Anyways, all of that said, this I agree with and that was kinda my overall point. If CCP increased individual rewards in Low enough to draw a lot of people in the Null-bears would come take over, and there’s no way it would result in people coming in to lose ships in PvE. That’s just not how PvE works.
No one mentioned PI in low. I used to do it as supplemental pvp income, aside from FW missions and plexing. It was consistent and stable Isk. My time zone was not the best for scanning sites. Godsapples used to run them mostly, and Shadow Cartel controlled one lvl 5 station, Eveuni another. Trade is VERY profitable in low, but that is largely dependent on activity levels too. Even without a JF, I was making enough Isk to fly cruisers and down all day. Citadel have somewhat wrecked the market in stations and shifted most of that supply internally within corporations and alliances, and neutrals with docking privileges, filtering out competitive options.
In my opinion, some of the best pvp’ers are found in lowsec. It’s pretty difficult to go unnoticed with anything even medium rigged unless it has cov ops travel. Thus the reason you have insta-warping Hecates and t3c’s being used for most things pve in uncontrolled areas.
Travelling within low is the issue I think. Combat on gates is also a big content generator. I can’t think of a solution to that with anything short of removing remote sebo’s from the game or reworking gate mechanics,. which could harm the pvp content in low.
More lanes would be nice. Especially connections with black rise other than hik/Pyne.
Never, NULL SEC must be the most filthiest, stinkiest, most ridiculously rich place, every null dweller should make a billion trillion ISK a day, have ALL the bestest mods, everything including Orion Slave Girls, nothing should be denied!
Exactly, it reminds me of urban planners. Urban planners plan cities based on how they think people should behave not based on how they behave. This one reason why most downtown areas have such horrible traffic, the urban planners always plan with a belief that the workers/residents will use public transport, and when people show up with their cars there is congestion, not enough parking, public transport is always on the verge of bankruptcy, etc.
The intent would be to force material to gate transit through LS, rather than jumping over/through it. That intent will be realised, regardless of what powerful groups try to do about it. No cynos means no cynos, no matter how rich or powerful you are.
LS has always been about gate control anyways, due to lack of bubbles.
It makes sense to expand that content generator.
If anything, removing cynos from LS will favor underdogs by limiting the effective use of cap drops by larger orgs.
The real value in LS, is in the enormous wealth jumping through it with impunity from HS to NS and back, right over their heads.
Highlighted the parts that don’t match. If you understood the power of large groups (and had been around to see those groups circumvent CCP time and time and time again) you wouldn’t think this way.
What makes you think ‘THIS TIME’ will be different? Just because it’s your idea?
If cynos are removed from LS, nobody will be able to light cynos there.
There is no way to circumvent that so as to use cynos in LS thereafter.
How players go about moving their stuff through/around LS etc without cynos will be up to them, but there wont be cynos, so that intent is practically realized.
This is already the case with fatigue. When moving caps whole sale, groups will use gates, maybe not as much, but they do. And they mitigate their risk when doing so. This will not be a huge panacea of cap and super-cap kills. It will likely be a whole lotta nothing.
How would you like being temporarily untargetable after activating a gate for 4 seconds? With a cool down if 30 seconds for each regenerated second; non-applicable to active war targets and is depleted and non regenerative while you have any kind of aggression timer ticking. Can this make lowsec more accessible or just make target calling on gate fights a pita?
If anyone thinks there will be no more gate fights with this, they would be wrong. There will always be fights on gates.
I would suppose bubbles on gates would still function as they do, you are just not able to be targeted for that small window.
Everything with an align time below 4 seconds would count as insta warp if you made that… Oops, make that 5 seconds since you need at least a full tick between “targettable” and locked to apply a point.
low sec is already vastly more valuable than NPC null with far less risk as no bubbles. explain to me please why you think low sec should be more valuable than NPC null?
Ye, I was thinking this would be great for cruisers and on down. An armor buffer fit BC would still be able to burn back to gate, but only once. A roaming gang would be at zero invuln. while traveling, unless they stop for 4 minutes.
IMO they’re focusing on rewards because the risk is caused totally by players, and for CCP to change the risk they’d have to control / restrict player actions. And they’re totally unwilling to do that.
For example, they could limit the risk of being attacked to the low-sec outside the deadpocket (i.e. only the mission runner can enter the mission area; PVP’ers would have to catch them on the way in, or on the way out with the loot). But CCP will never do this, and I’m pretty sure everyone in this thread will jump on me for even suggesting something like this, and kick me off to the Bad Ideas thread.
It’s weird at the moment the list of security spaces from safest to most dangerous are…
Nullsec (Safest)
Highsec (Slightly less safe than null… seriously…)
Lowsec/WH space (Honestly I find them tied, WH space is legitimately more dangerous for your assets due to no asset safety, and no local to keep you safe, but on the otherhand you can’t be hotdropped like you can in lowsec.)
Bubbles don’t work in lowsec, and CCP put so many safe travel and safe pve fit options into this game that it cannot possibly be travel that is cause of the perceived lowsec problems. Covert cloaks even come on good pve ships (eg stratios).
I am in a small entity in nullsec, I have either had my slow stuff jump freightered in, I’ve found a wormhole at the destination and flown it in via the wormhole, or I built it here, with melt from anoms and a bpc that flew in from highsec in a travelceptor, and I routinely use my travelceptors to scout for friendlies (ie group play should occur in null), and I have pings burned at gates to use when travelling in pvp ships larger than ceptors, or if I suspect battleships on a gate.
The game doesn’t need more gate safety - that would remove literally the only method I get non consensual engaged - the insta locker.
[quote=“Jenn_aSide, post:50, topic:32589”]