Magic 14 Removal

True. Would an easier way to be to keep the skills but have everyone start at level 5?

It would seem so at first glance, but then you have to code a way to lock those skills to not be extractable ever, as otherwise folks will just yank the SP from them and throw it wherever else they want/sell it. It’s not a small amount of SP when all of them are at level 5 (5,376,000 SP).

Given the current nature of the skill training system overall, I think it is best to leave them as-is: if players are interested in performing activities that will benefit from the skills they can train them, if not they can ignore them. The same as any other skills in the game.

1 Like

Set skills level 5 automaticlaly. Set required skillpoints for each level as 1 skillpoint?

1 Like

Then you are coding an entirely different skill type for those skills, as presently all skills function on the same Skill Point cost system (base cost for level 1 is 250 SP, 2 is 1415 SP, etc, and then skills are assigned a multiplier against that base cost).

Which again, seems like a lot for work for something that isn’t an actual issue for new players.

The Magic 14 is a playerbase-suggested option for training of skills that aid a lot of combat-related ship scenarios, but are not a go-to minimum requirement for everything new players are doing. And importantly, most of these skills are already trained to 2 or 3 by default - why do we need to give new players them at 5?

Magic 14 skill list - Default new character level:
CPU Management - IV
Power Grid Management - IV
Capacitor Management - III
Capacitor Systems Operation - III
Mechanics - II (Caldari) or III (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar)
Hull Upgrades - II (Caldari) or III (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar)
Shield Management - I (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar) or II (Caldari)
Shield Operation - I
Long Range Targeting - II
Signature Analysis - II
Navigation - III
Evasive Maneuvering - I
Warp Drive Operation - II
Spaceship Command - III

2 Likes

Looking at that wiki page , it’s clearly specified in red:

Important: This page is NOT intended to be a skill plan. This is a list of ‘support’ skills which impact all the ships you will fly. Training them is important because it will give you an edge, but there is no point training support skills without first training the skills you need to actually USE the ships and modules. We would suggest you get these skills trained up after training the minimal skills required to actually use the ships you want to fly.

So you have to take this into consideration .

Regarding the skills listed there:

CPU and PG management , they are among the first that should be at level 5 trained , but for a new player that wants to fly a decent fit cruiser or battlecruiser, you can get away with one of them to level 4 as it is already when you start the game, depending on the race of the chosen ship. Also there are rigs , modules and implants that help
Cap management and systems op , same thing for the start having them to level 3-4 is perfectly acceptable , plenty of cap modules, rigs and implants to choose from also.

On the armor tree , they only mention Mechanics and Hull Upgrades , but fail to add Repair Systems there . Even it you go for armor ships , having Mechanics to 5 really won’t help much , unless you want to go the PvP road and want a low SP blaster Thorax/Gnosis/Brutix hull tanked.

On shields they only have Shield Operation and Shield Management recommended to 5 , again they fail to add Tactical Shield Manipulation, Shield Upgrades and Shield Compensation, not saying that you need these to 5 or the Repair Systems skill to 5 , but for a new player seeing that page , he would think he needs Shield Management and Operation first trained to 5 . Same thing , even if you go the path of shields , having the ones mentioned there on the page to just level 4 , will me more than enough for cruisers/battlecruisers .

Targeting . Well recommending Long Range targeting to 5 is just… , same as Signature Analysis . Again , you get away easy with there to level 3-4 as a starter .

Navigation . I can understand Navigation and Evasive Maneuvering to 5 , but Warp Drive Operation doesn’t make any sense to 5, unless the new player wants to go from day 1 the capital road . Also for the start Navigation and Evasive Maneuvering to level 3-4 , perfectly acceptable . Again, they don’t mention other important skills there as AB, High speed Maneuvering , Acceleration Control or Fuel Conservation . What would a new player think … that before training the ones I added here to level 3-4 , he first needs Warp Drive Op 5 , or all of the 3 mentioned on the page to 5 first ?

Last one is Spaceship Command there , that you also don’t need it to 5 as a new player.

To conclude , I wouldn’t recommend that page to a new player . To quote them

This is a list of ‘support’ skills

But they forgot to add crucial support skills in there . Not to mention that with some of the skills in there you will be for a long time in the game to just level 4.
They mention the skills I talked about and put those in an “advanced support skills” list . I can tell you that if a new player sees that, he’ll just skip it, and think that first he needs the Basic 14 trained to 5. It only confuses him more.

If this page gets linked into the rookie channel , then it is sad. I don’t even know why they made it as it is, as it looks they didn’t put much thought into it.
Their intention was good, but poorly executed.

2 Likes

Easier option…

…character purchased at specific price that comes with magic 14 max leveled.

It’ll force those that purchase it to be invested more in the game than those that alpha train a character.

The only ones complaining about the magical seem to think that they are required, and should be max lvl ASAP. Not true.
Most T1 ships and modules don’t require them,or only at low level.

To me said like some that believes they deserve skills to be given to them without any effort.

1 Like

If we water down EVE enough it will be both old and uninteresting.

9 Likes

I have no idea if it would be easy or not, and I’m not saying that CCP should. But couldn’t they just change the skill rank/multiplier from 1 or 2 to something like .1 or .01? Plus, there might be a way to just lock down those particular skills from being extracted, rather than have to redesign things from scratch. I’m not a programmer, nor do I know how Eve does things, but I’d have to imagine that there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

1 Like

I don’t disagree that it is surely doable in some fashion (and I did mention locking them down as an option). The point was that it’s a lot of changes to code (with the inherent risk of breaking stuff along the way) just to deliver level 5 of a bunch of skills that new players are already getting mostly around level 3, and may not need at level 5. It’s an arbitrary list of skills that a specific player group put together as suggestions for when players aren’t sure where to go next. They are by no means applicable-to or appropriate-for all characters in all situations. Why redesign these specific skills and not something else? Is the Magic 14 really all that magic? Should it be 14? 12? 16?

The more logical way to approach this is to thoroughly examine the current list of all new player skills, by race, and the various career paths, and see if there are tweaks merited to help new players get started in an at least minimally effective fashion in as many careers as possible. Which I think is already pretty well covered by the 300k-ish SP new players have, plus the opportunities for over 1m bonus SP to inject into a couple skills as players explore starting careers.

1 Like

2 Likes

Remove all skill points and give every pilot one of every ship. If you’re going to stupefy the game, do it right!

Folks seem to forget that learning the game is what’s supposed to happen, SP doesn’t usually win, better piloting does.

1 Like

Not enough SP is the golden excuse.

Never mind that only so much SP can be effective in any given ship and build.

The claim that people who have been playing 10 years are hopelessly ahead BECAUSE of SP has always been a myth.

Especially when it comes to sub cap, small fleet, combat where player skill is 90% AT LEAST of the equation.

5 Likes

^ :point_up_2: This .

I had more fun when I had less sp and had to try harder to make up for it.

3 Likes

10% is a huge advantage with all other things being equal. It is disingenuous at best to imply that skill points don’t make a big difference in subcap, small fleet combat. It also takes millions of skill points before they no longer become a factor in a given ship and build, not even counting how many new players are spreading thin trying to cover everything they want to do instead of just one specific ship.

leave the magic 14 alone… i was fortunate to not have to go through the burden of the learning skills, maybe ccp should bring them back??

2 Likes

That would weed out a lot of snowflakes.

2 Likes

Learning skills were a big requirement back in the day. Specially with clone insurance being around.

Hate to say it back then with those players thought more about engaging targets and this was less random ganking, as if your clone died you’d most like loose some skill points, if not complete skill levels.

If you were killed there was a tactic reason. And any ganker for the fun of random kills had to deal with regional navy patrols and lockout of npc stations.

But back to point skill training has been a key feature of the fane, its what limits player from using specific items and flying certain ships,it also also limits how much resources and isk you can generate,how big your corp can be, etc,etc…

This whole topic is made by self-entitled new generation players, wanting everything for nothing, expecting everything to be given to them without the hardyards.

1 Like

Yea i know about learning skills… Joining in 2011 I missed out on those, but not the losing SP for death of a clone…

Yip it was part of the isk sink, the more you insured the less of a hit you took to your skills.

It’s similar to the T3 skills we still have today.

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.