Magic 14 Removal

Proposal:
Remove the Magic 14 skills and refund the skill points to pilots that have already trained them.

Why?:

  • Less for new players to learn.

  • Quicker access to playing the game at optimal levels.

  • It feels like a requirement to have level 5 in all magic 14 skills.

  • Time consuming.

Synopsis:
I think the magic 14 are kind of dumb and just make people waste time on training. If everyone is going to train them, then just remove them and act as if everyone already has them trained to level 5. These are not optional skills. Everyone must learn them to fit and fly their ships optimally, from the nimble frigates to the mighty titans.

Why are you making this suggestion?:
Just curious to see how other people feel on this subject. Feel free to flay me alive and hump my frozen corpse until the friction warms me back up.

That sounds like what happend to learning skills.

I would rather vote that magic 14 gets sp needed to max those skills reduced so that players can get semi skill points back and that new players can get into the action faster without getting bored and playing another game, before they are able to play the game properly.

Thing is we already have everything almost maxed out, we do not have player specialists anymore everyone can do everything.

I vote every skill gets a lvl 6 so that everyone can feel like a special snow flake training for 8 months on 1 skill and have something that almost no one else has and truly be a specialist in it.

New player “I’m going to be the best god damn dictor pilot.” *joins an alliance “O we already have plenty of those, fly this doctrine bs rather…”

New player “My goal is level 6 dictor and to master flying it.” - “■■■■■■■ Welcome aboard mate.”

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That’s a fair compromise. I really just want new players get into the action faster.

That’s an interesting thought. I like it a lot. I’m all for more specializations. I just feel that the magic 14 are required for everything, so if they’re like the learning skills, they can go the way of the learning skills.

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Honestly, yeah, Magic 14 skills are absolute trash and should be removed. The more time players spend training skills that actually provide a feeling of progress (like unlocking a new racial ship class, or even a new weapon system), the more enjoyable it’ll be. Instead of wasting months on these Magic 14.

Just remove all support skills while you’re at it. /s

Seriously though, no support. The magic 14 are fine as they are. Some people make the mistake of thinking these skills are somehow required. They’re not.

The ‘magic 14’ are base flying skills that are very often useful and for that reason they are recommended to newbies who do not yet know what they should train. These skills are not the most important skills and neither are they required to train to 5 right away. Training all these skills to level 3 is sufficient for a newbie and that takes very little time.

These 14 skills, like any other skills, are optional. A choice for specialisation. And as such, I see no less reason to remove these skills than to remove any or all of the other skills in the game ‘just because it is less for new players to learn’.

Why are they optional?

  1. Magic 14 is only useful for characters that fly in space. Many characters do not need to train them. Most of my characters have only trained a couple of them at most.
  2. The Magic 14 consists of very different skills that improve different parts of your flying, even if you fly a lot, not all of these skills are used. You do not use Long range targeting when you’re hauling.
  3. Like any other skill, you can choose to train for only 20% of the time to get 80% of the effect. That last part that people like to complain about ‘it’s so time consuming!’ is completely optional, unless you have some really tight fit that you cannot solve any other way by using compact modules or an implant
  4. Unlike learning skills, which were terrible because you had to start training nothing useful before you could train other things more efficiently, the Magic 14 do not stop you from training other skills first. You can choose to train your mining or exploration skills first if you want to, and it’s recommended even to do so, because the Magic 14 is only if you don’t know what else to prioritize.

Just like the EVE uni wiki on Magic 14 suggests:

Important: This page is NOT intended to be a skill plan. This is a list of ‘support’ skills which impact all the ships you will fly. Training them is important because it will give you an edge, but there is no point training support skills without first training the skills you need to actually USE the ships and modules. We would suggest you get these skills trained up after training the minimal skills required to actually use the ships you want to fly.

Magic 14 are support skills, just like any other support skills that improve your flying capabilities. They’re a bit more general than support skills that allow my guns to fire faster, or support skills that give me more resistance against ECM, but they shouldn’t just be removed because people find them boring to train.

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So they are support skills that are more general than other support skills. I think this might be my main problem with them. They seem so general that I feel they should just not exist. Eventually everyone trains them to level 5. They’re a weird pseudo required skillset that everyone wants to have to level 5 so that they don’t have to worry about them anymore.

I do see your points though. They aren’t “required”, but i feel it would be a good quality of life improvement to have them removed. Mostly for new players and future players. I don’t think they add much value to the game as a whole compared to other skills that improve you flying faction ships, shooting faster, making your missiles hit harder.

Also, I think removing a feature that most people find boring or don’t want to use is legitimate. That’s the point of this post though. If most people think they’re worth keeping, then fair enough. Thanks for your response.

Proposal:
Remove all skills and have all ships perform at optimal levels for all pilots.

Why?:

  • Less for new players to learn.
  • Quicker access to playing the game at optimal levels.
  • If feels like a requirement to have good skills.
  • Time consuming.

Synopsis:
I fail to be persuaded by your arguments, as they apply equally as well to a proposal to completely get rid of a progression system in Eve. Of course, arguing about whether Eve (or games in general) should have progression system is a whole another can of worms. So, I’ll refrain from going down that tangent (for now).

Personally, I think the magic 14 should stay:

  • It gives new players something to train when they aren’t exactly sure what they want to do in the game. Thus, it allows them to make progress even when they are lacking in direction.
  • It slows progression into more expensive fits/ships, and makes them spend more time is smaller, cheaper fits/ships. I think this is important in a PvP-centric game with a full-loot death-mechanic, as it leads to more new players learning hard lessons in cheaper ships. Now, I do realize that some people will rush into big and expensive ships without training their support skills, and use bling in order to try to compensate for not being able to use T2 mods. However, (1) even if they had excellent support skills, things would still likely end terribly for them due to a lack of player skill, and (2) the removal of formal and informal gatekeepers would likely lead to an increase of newbros rushing into bigger/more expensive ships.
  • Even if the skills are mostly mandatory, players still get meaningful choice through deciding the order in which to train them. Moreover, there are actually some toons out there that actually don’t need all of the magic 14 (i.e freighter characters don’t need targeting skills).
  • Lots of “fast” skills make you feel like you’re making a lot of progress in the early months.
  • Alpha skill limits on the magic 14 provide more incentive to go Omega.

It’s been a while, but I do remember how it felt like it took forever to train anything to competency (and forget about maxing things out). So, I am sympathetic to the idea of reducing some of that train. In fact, CCP themselves have done things like (1) get rid of the learning skills (absolutely terrible idea to implement them in the first place), (2) increasing players’ starting SP, and (3) reduce skill requirements for unlocking other skills (i.e. Advanced Weapon Upgrades now only requires Weapon Upgrades IV). Thus, I’d be more receptive to arguments to reduce the newbro train. However, I believe that completely removing the magic 14 goes too far.

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Removing these skills would require applying the effects of the level 5 iterations of the Magic 14 skills to all affected attributes on all ships/modules, which would make all other skills that impact those attributes have a larger impact. This would be a nightmare to apply and then balance.

EXTREMELY simplified example:
Current behavior is skill A (a magic 14 skill) is +5% per level, skill B (any other skill) is +3% per level:
Skill A at level 5 [25%] and skill B at level 5 [15%] is a total bonus of +40%
Base value = 100
Modified-by-skills value = 140 (40% of 100 is 40, +100 = 140)

New version with Skill A (magic 14 skill) applied to the hull and then Skill B (any other skill) applies to the modified hull value.
Base value: 125 (25% of 100 is 25, +100 = 125)
Modified-by-skills value = 143.75 (15% of 125 is 18.75, +125 = 143.75)

Fair enough. Thank you for the detailed responses. They do add a perspective I didn’t consider.

I wouldn’t want to get rid of the whole progression system, but I can understand how this is probably a slippery slope.

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True. Would an easier way to be to keep the skills but have everyone start at level 5?

It would seem so at first glance, but then you have to code a way to lock those skills to not be extractable ever, as otherwise folks will just yank the SP from them and throw it wherever else they want/sell it. It’s not a small amount of SP when all of them are at level 5 (5,376,000 SP).

Given the current nature of the skill training system overall, I think it is best to leave them as-is: if players are interested in performing activities that will benefit from the skills they can train them, if not they can ignore them. The same as any other skills in the game.

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Set skills level 5 automaticlaly. Set required skillpoints for each level as 1 skillpoint?

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Then you are coding an entirely different skill type for those skills, as presently all skills function on the same Skill Point cost system (base cost for level 1 is 250 SP, 2 is 1415 SP, etc, and then skills are assigned a multiplier against that base cost).

Which again, seems like a lot for work for something that isn’t an actual issue for new players.

The Magic 14 is a playerbase-suggested option for training of skills that aid a lot of combat-related ship scenarios, but are not a go-to minimum requirement for everything new players are doing. And importantly, most of these skills are already trained to 2 or 3 by default - why do we need to give new players them at 5?

Magic 14 skill list - Default new character level:
CPU Management - IV
Power Grid Management - IV
Capacitor Management - III
Capacitor Systems Operation - III
Mechanics - II (Caldari) or III (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar)
Hull Upgrades - II (Caldari) or III (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar)
Shield Management - I (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar) or II (Caldari)
Shield Operation - I
Long Range Targeting - II
Signature Analysis - II
Navigation - III
Evasive Maneuvering - I
Warp Drive Operation - II
Spaceship Command - III

2 Likes

Looking at that wiki page , it’s clearly specified in red:

Important: This page is NOT intended to be a skill plan. This is a list of ‘support’ skills which impact all the ships you will fly. Training them is important because it will give you an edge, but there is no point training support skills without first training the skills you need to actually USE the ships and modules. We would suggest you get these skills trained up after training the minimal skills required to actually use the ships you want to fly.

So you have to take this into consideration .

Regarding the skills listed there:

CPU and PG management , they are among the first that should be at level 5 trained , but for a new player that wants to fly a decent fit cruiser or battlecruiser, you can get away with one of them to level 4 as it is already when you start the game, depending on the race of the chosen ship. Also there are rigs , modules and implants that help
Cap management and systems op , same thing for the start having them to level 3-4 is perfectly acceptable , plenty of cap modules, rigs and implants to choose from also.

On the armor tree , they only mention Mechanics and Hull Upgrades , but fail to add Repair Systems there . Even it you go for armor ships , having Mechanics to 5 really won’t help much , unless you want to go the PvP road and want a low SP blaster Thorax/Gnosis/Brutix hull tanked.

On shields they only have Shield Operation and Shield Management recommended to 5 , again they fail to add Tactical Shield Manipulation, Shield Upgrades and Shield Compensation, not saying that you need these to 5 or the Repair Systems skill to 5 , but for a new player seeing that page , he would think he needs Shield Management and Operation first trained to 5 . Same thing , even if you go the path of shields , having the ones mentioned there on the page to just level 4 , will me more than enough for cruisers/battlecruisers .

Targeting . Well recommending Long Range targeting to 5 is just… , same as Signature Analysis . Again , you get away easy with there to level 3-4 as a starter .

Navigation . I can understand Navigation and Evasive Maneuvering to 5 , but Warp Drive Operation doesn’t make any sense to 5, unless the new player wants to go from day 1 the capital road . Also for the start Navigation and Evasive Maneuvering to level 3-4 , perfectly acceptable . Again, they don’t mention other important skills there as AB, High speed Maneuvering , Acceleration Control or Fuel Conservation . What would a new player think … that before training the ones I added here to level 3-4 , he first needs Warp Drive Op 5 , or all of the 3 mentioned on the page to 5 first ?

Last one is Spaceship Command there , that you also don’t need it to 5 as a new player.

To conclude , I wouldn’t recommend that page to a new player . To quote them

This is a list of ‘support’ skills

But they forgot to add crucial support skills in there . Not to mention that with some of the skills in there you will be for a long time in the game to just level 4.
They mention the skills I talked about and put those in an “advanced support skills” list . I can tell you that if a new player sees that, he’ll just skip it, and think that first he needs the Basic 14 trained to 5. It only confuses him more.

If this page gets linked into the rookie channel , then it is sad. I don’t even know why they made it as it is, as it looks they didn’t put much thought into it.
Their intention was good, but poorly executed.

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Easier option…

…character purchased at specific price that comes with magic 14 max leveled.

It’ll force those that purchase it to be invested more in the game than those that alpha train a character.

The only ones complaining about the magical seem to think that they are required, and should be max lvl ASAP. Not true.
Most T1 ships and modules don’t require them,or only at low level.

To me said like some that believes they deserve skills to be given to them without any effort.

If we water down EVE enough it will be both old and uninteresting.

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I have no idea if it would be easy or not, and I’m not saying that CCP should. But couldn’t they just change the skill rank/multiplier from 1 or 2 to something like .1 or .01? Plus, there might be a way to just lock down those particular skills from being extracted, rather than have to redesign things from scratch. I’m not a programmer, nor do I know how Eve does things, but I’d have to imagine that there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

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I don’t disagree that it is surely doable in some fashion (and I did mention locking them down as an option). The point was that it’s a lot of changes to code (with the inherent risk of breaking stuff along the way) just to deliver level 5 of a bunch of skills that new players are already getting mostly around level 3, and may not need at level 5. It’s an arbitrary list of skills that a specific player group put together as suggestions for when players aren’t sure where to go next. They are by no means applicable-to or appropriate-for all characters in all situations. Why redesign these specific skills and not something else? Is the Magic 14 really all that magic? Should it be 14? 12? 16?

The more logical way to approach this is to thoroughly examine the current list of all new player skills, by race, and the various career paths, and see if there are tweaks merited to help new players get started in an at least minimally effective fashion in as many careers as possible. Which I think is already pretty well covered by the 300k-ish SP new players have, plus the opportunities for over 1m bonus SP to inject into a couple skills as players explore starting careers.

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Remove all skill points and give every pilot one of every ship. If you’re going to stupefy the game, do it right!

Folks seem to forget that learning the game is what’s supposed to happen, SP doesn’t usually win, better piloting does.