Main AFK cloaky thread

There’s not really much room for anything else given the levels of illiteracy at work here. You yourself are the living example that thoughtful discussions and education simply don’t work.

Sounds like you figured out the defining characteristic of stealth gameplay. That’s not unique to EVE, you know. That’s part of every stealth gameplay in every game that supports it and reality is just the same. Take that away and you no longer have stealth gameplay.

As has been pointed out to you again and again, no cloaked ship in EVE has ever killed anyone, making your argument about cloaked ships being a threat while they are totally safe just stupid.

This may be true, but it does not have to be 100% secure with zero effort on the part of the cloaked ship. Having ad advantage is fine. Having an unbreakable lock is not.

This is about as asinine and intellectually dishonest as you can possibly get. This is why I don’t argue against AFK cloaks, just cloaks in general. This discussion completely convinced me that cloaks themselves are the problem, in every part of space, in ever activity they are used in.

Does not matter what you are trying to do under that cloak. You too deserve to have people come looking to shoot you, and those people have a reasonable expectation that if they are out in space with you that they can succeed in disrupting your gameplay.

Yes, and the cloaked player can do nothing either. Seems balanced to me.

Why Mike is that an ad hominem?

And yes, a cloaked ship with a player who is ATK can indeed gather intel. But so can the residents. Can they see local? Can they look at your information such as what corp you are with, which alliance? Can they look at killboards and gather even more intel? Can they surmise, by not seeing you on d-scan or with probes that you are in a cloaked ship? Can they look at the map and get an idea if you have any buddies near by?

Hmmm…So your problem is that they can gather that intel without risk…but then, you can gather intel as well without risk. Seems balanced to me.

Yes, but I can’t do much else now can I. Seems kind of…well…balanced. You can’t do anything to me, I can’t do anything to you.

Why? It seems pretty balanced. To maintain this risk you are so upset about I have to pose no risk to anyone else.

Once a cloaked player engages then there is risk. For both sides. Seems again balanced.

Where exactly is the problem? That an AFK player is scaring you via local? The very thing that is letting you reduce your risk? Hmmmm…I don’t think the issue is balance, it’s that you want an even greater edge than local already gives you.

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So don’t let it be 100% safe. Bring a buddy or two. FFS.

No, you once again stubbornly refuse to get it. Get rid of this ridiculous obsession with abstract principles like “you need to press a button or it isn’t fair” and look at the practical effects of your proposal.

Does it increase PvP interaction in any meaningful way? No. A cloaked player can still easily evade pursuit by warping between safespots faster than you can locate them. From the point of view of the pursuers the resulting gameplay will be exactly identical to what you can currently do: drop probes and then spam “scan” as fast as possible until you get tired of pressing the button. It’s a pointless waste of developer time on the level of removing auto-repeat from modules so that you are no longer 100% guaranteed to fire your guns until you run out of charges and have to use skill to keep them firing at maximum effectiveness. No meaningful gameplay depth is added, only additional buttons to press.

Does it increase safety for RMT farmers? Yes. Your proposal makes it impossible to keep your name in local when you go AFK, increasing the accuracy of local as an intel tool and therefore increasing safety and profitability for RMTers who depend on a “dock when there is a non-blue in local, farm at all other times” strategy. You can now guarantee that any name in local is an active (potential) threat, and once a threat goes AFK and ceases to be a threat they disappear from local and inform you that it is safe to resume farming. And, most importantly, this all works in a way that the bot can recognize so you can completely automate the process.

So, we have you lobbying for a change that does nothing to improve PvP gameplay but gives a massive buff to RMT botters. No matter how many times you claim it’s about principles of risk for everyone the simple fact is that this supposed principle is nothing more than a pretense of legitimacy for your real goal of buffing RMTers.

someone not even in space with you might enjoy their gameplay without you there to personally ruin it for them.

Yet again you ignore my explicit statements that it’s not about me personally. In fact, I don’t even bother with AFK cloaking personally. What is a problem is that nullsec farming is extremely profitable, making hundreds of millions of ISK per hour, potentially billions for the most effective farmers. And yet, despite this immense profitability, the risk of loss is essentially zero. The NPCs are passive loot containers that are only a meaningful threat to newbies who don’t belong in nullsec yet, and the PvP risks are easily avoided by basic use of local. If you farm in nullsec for an entire year you will make a huge amount of money, but unless you are incompetent renter trash you will probably never lose a single ship. The worst consequence you can suffer is being forced to dock for a while and not farm until the threat leaves.

And what is even worse about this situation is that the ISK generation is purely an ISK faucet. This is not a redistribution of existing wealth like manufacturing (potentially 100% safe and AFK) is, where the total ISK supply remains constant and only moves between players. ISK is generated out of nothing for the bounty payments. When farming is allowed to be risk-free and extremely efficient the ISK supply increases at an immense rate, driving inflation and distorting the economy.

So, what is the only counter to this, to introduce some level of risk to farming? Keeping a potential threat in local 23/7 so that local is no longer a viable intel tool. The farmer must either permanently abandon their farming and produce zero ISK or accept a degree of risk by abandoning the use of local. Smart players undock because smart play can reduce the loss rate to significantly less than their farming income, stupid players get camped into station and cry on the forums. It doesn’t matter who does the camping or killing, but it must be possible to do so.

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DUDES please stop, this thread has years developing, good points bad points, pros vs cons.
The real fact here is that ccp, doesn’t care and it wont be fixing this. He will let cloaky campers be.
So why not close the thread and keep going with our life’s like always.
This game it’s like 15 years old, layers and layers of good and bad code, patches over patches that fix 2 things an break 5. Features promised never completed, others well implemented. CCP will not be fixing TIDI any time soon.
Err we were talking about cloaky campers?, lol well they will be staying too. If CCP would care about or sincere opinions they would have dealt with them years ago.,
Last i am not mad, don’t want to sound harsh just my bad english so please read this in a calm and polite accent, is what i meant it to be.

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So… take some risk over there, and experience some for yourself. If you don’t feel they are under enough threat, go provide it. That’s your prerogative, and possibly even your obligation as you seem to really, really feel that those people need someone shooting at them.

Arguing in favor of a mechanic that makes not playing, on both sides, the best option is just idiotic.

No. It’s not. It’s an observation that a cloaked ship can be extremely effective at some tasks despite being 100% safe at the same time.

Except one is at risk, and the other is totally safe when hunters show up to stop them. Not balanced at all.

All else being equal, the cloak creates a situation where with 2 ships doing the same thing, one is 100% safe with hunters in system, the other is at risk. Not balanced in any way.

It sure would be nice if the same was true of the guy cloaking. Why should he be able to operate without backup in enemy space with active hunters, yet be totally safe

I would say it does. Unfortunately you are unable to grasp why.

Nonsense. People can lobby for gameplay changes involving broken things without having to personally go over and attack the people exploiting it. Your argument here is just plain stupid.

Arguing in favor of a mechanic that makes not playing, on both sides, the best option is just idiotic.

Therefore remove local. Now “no longer playing” is not a relevant option anymore.

Not that not playing is the best option for the AFK cloaker anyway. The best option is being active and able to engage any targets that appear, passively sitting in a safespot is just the thing you’re forced to do the rest of the time to mitigate the overpowered nature of local as an intel tool. Putting a bunch of perma-AFK alts everywhere is only the best option for shutting down RMT bots that auto-dock if a non-blue name is in local, and I’d be perfectly happy to see the bots get banned and this tactic no longer be necessary.

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You would say it does, because everything you say is a dishonest attempt to justify your proposals to buff RMT botters. But we already know that you have very limited knowledge of PvP, and don’t understand how your proposals will not result in being able to catch a cloaked ship that does not want to be caught.

It sure would be nice if the same was true of the guy cloaking. Why should he be able to operate without backup in enemy space with active hunters, yet be totally safe

Because the only “operation” that is possible is sitting passively in a safespot. Anything else requires bringing more people.

All else being equal, the cloak creates a situation where with 2 ships doing the same thing, one is 100% safe with hunters in system, the other is at risk. Not balanced in any way.

First of all, a ship that is trying to avoid being caught is effectively 100% safe whether or not they have a cloak. Any ship can move between safespots (or just dock up) faster than the pursuit can chase it, so the risk of loss is essentially limited to the small chance of a lag spike preventing you from clicking the warp button.

Second, of course a ship that has a cloak is more capable at stealth tactics when compared to a ship that does not have any stealth modules or bonuses. Why do you feel that this is a meaningful statement to make?

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Except that does not improve any of the gameplay around cloaks. Cloaks are the problem because they remove 100% of any risk from the ship using it, while still allowing that ship to be active, doing things like gathering intel, setting up hotdrops, protecting capitals from unwise decisions, etc…

You want to keep banging on ‘afk’, but that’s just one symptom of a larger problem.

We are going to go back to Can you not see the grid, overview, etc…? You certainly can be operating effectively, and unless you are an absolute total idiot your risk goes from 100% safe to 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% safe, even if you have active hunters on grid with you.

Warping between safespots also removes the risk of getting caught while setting up a hotdrop. The cloak is not a defensive module in this case, it’s an offensive module that allows you to get into attack position without your target immediately warping off. So yes, stealth ships require actual stealth to be effective.

You want to keep banging on ‘afk’, but that’s just one symptom of a larger problem.

I keep “banging on AFK” because you keep making proposals that only work against AFK cloaked ships. Your scenario involving hunting down a cloaked ship can only happen if they are AFK because if they aren’t AFK they can just warp between safespots faster than you can track them. Your proposals, no matter how much you try to apply your ridiculous pretense of balance, are nothing more than attempting to make it impossible to keep your name in local when you go AFK. And that has a primary effect of making RMT botting safer and more profitable.

We are going to go back to Can you not see the grid, overview, etc…?

None of which are relevant to your hypothetical solo cloaker. Gathering intel on a force you can’t defeat solo only matters if you have allies available to help you once you decide to launch the attack. Otherwise none of your intel gathering has any effect. No matter how much you gather it all just says “you are weak, continue sitting idle in your safespot”.

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No one forces them to remain afk. That’s a choice that they make and it should cost them appropriately.

There is stealth, and then there is mechanically 100% safe. Guess which one a cloak provides, and then figure out why that is wrong. I’m sure you can if you think hard enough, you just have to try.

This brings us back to what happens if we take cloaks out of the local roster, but put them on Dscan so that the intel isn’t free and requires even more vigilance and effort. You just about wet yourself at the very idea, You have actual stealth at that point. Tons more opportunity so long as you act rather than depend on your effortless safety blanket… but you screech like a slapped toddler at the very concept that you be at risk.

I mean, god forbid anyone truly defend their space effectively against your harmful gaze.

Or we could just remove local, and AFK cloaking would stop happening. Problem solved.

There is stealth, and then there is mechanically 100% safe. Guess which one a cloak provides, and then figure out why that is wrong. I’m sure you can if you think hard enough, you just have to try.

It doesn’t provide 100% safety because you already have the 100% safety. Any ship can warp between safespots, cloak or no cloak. The cloak provides offensive ability by allowing you to set up attacks without your target knowing you are there and warping away before you can get into position.

This brings us back to what happens if we take cloaks out of the local roster, but put them on Dscan so that the intel isn’t free and requires even more vigilance and effort.

Oh yes, you mean the idea where you demonstrated your ignorance of PvP and tried to claim that people don’t spam d-scan when in hostile space? Where you arguably make RMTing even more safe and profitable because now you can put up a 5AU d-scan, be aware of any cloaked ship long before they can get to you, and farm even when potential threats are in the system?

You just about wet yourself at the very idea

No, I dismissed it as yet another of your terrible ideas for buffing RMT bots. It does nothing to make life more dangerous for cloaked ships (because d-scan can’t locate them accurately enough to attack a cloaked ship) but it sure does make life safer for RMT bots.

You have actual stealth at that point.

No you don’t, because d-scan allows you to instantly reveal any cloaked ship within 14 AU and give you a “warp out and dock” warning. You don’t have stealth if it is impossible to sneak up on anyone who is doing the bare minimum to watch for threats.

No. Did you not read that part that the cloaked ship can’t do anything to you? If there are hunters out you too are totally safe from the big bad cloaked ship. Balanced.

Not true. You can do all of the things I noted from within a station or a POS. From within a citadel you can even “look outside”. You can also fit a cloak too. In fact, having a cloaked ship so you can check out possible locations for a hostile BLOPs fleet lets you do everything the cloaked ship can do…all while safe too.

Balanced…

  1. Because he has a cloak.
  2. To you Mike he always has back up. You always whine about the cyno and 50 quadrillion ships coming through and taking down your fleet/fleets/first born child/etc.

Like I noted awhile ago Mike, you always lose. Always. That is your default scenario: We can’t win the cloak is too OP and the cyno is too OP. CCPlease fix!

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Maybe because the cloaked ship doesn’t actually have stealth…

Nice attempt at deflection.

Just because he has a cloak he should not be 100% safe, unbreakably and for all of time. He is alone in space, without backup, with multiple accounts actively trying to hunt him down and yet he can go AFK without a care in the world. That is too much.

And no, to me it does not matter if he has backup or not. What matters is that someone be able to force action upon him before he is ready to take it. If he had the backup, great! If not, to bad. If he can get away, good for him! If he got caught because he was stupid, inattentive or both? Well he should have tried harder.

Regardless, he should not be risk free in his goals any more than his target is in theirs.

He isn’t. The AFK cloaker can only accomplish their goals by accepting risk, unless that goal is forcing RMT bots to auto-dock. So, once again, we see your real goal: make RMT botting safer and more profitable.

There you are, charging your ‘afk’ strawman yet again.

He can have other goals, like gathering intel, hiding a capital caught without it’s escort, or setting up a hotdrop.

All of that deserves to be interfered with just as much as farming.