Main AFK cloaky thread

[Old_Pervert]

@Mike_Voidstar

So take it from the other end. Try viewing the game from the perspective that the carebears aren’t cowards, they just don’t like the kind of gameplay you are trying to force on them.

Eve is specifically marketed as a game where the walls come crashing down with little to no warning. It’s marketed as the game where you can royally screw anyone. It’s literally marketed as a PVP game in all regards.

We aren’t forcing that gameplay on them, we’re playing the game CCP made.

You might not like PVP, but you’re playing what is in every regard a PVP game. Don’t play a PVP game if you don’t like PVP. You’ll be all the more bored when there is no risk keeping you on the edge of your seat as you fly around on your mount in WoW mining ore nodes on a PVE server.

@Mike_Voidstar

This should be a Win for all involved, except that the gankbears are cowards who want to fight but only if their targets are helpless against them.

As I said to @Lena_Crews, you’re very right. They’re gankbears. Which means they’re easy to kill. We do it often. And as I have said time and time again, there are many ways for krabs to be 100% safe, reaping more than the “100% safe” cloaky camper during the same period of time.

@Mike_Voidstar

over a dozen people over the years

A dozen?! Wait, are we talking about a dozen or a baker’s dozen? That’s a huge number, if you add a couple zeros afterward.

[yellow_parasol]

@Mike_Voidstar

It’s clear that you don’t feel that anyone not interested in a purely battlefield style PvP experience has a valid playstyle. That does not sit well with a sandbox game

stopped right here, because that’s wrong. it’s a proper sandbox, yeah, also called pvp sandbox, with natural laws. the battlefield style pvp you mention is an invention of you and has nothing to do with the game, or what i think.

Your misunderstanding comes from all these shitty games who use sandbox as a buzzword. most MMOs are not actually MMOs (because players do not really play together) and most so called sandboxes aren’t sandboxes (because a sandbox demands thatyou can build and destroy, like in real sandboxes).

there are no “play styles”. there are no choices for playing independently of the rules of the game. there is a world that’s based on natural laws and everyone who joins the game has to accept that. there is (not in the foreseeable future, at least) no room for those who are incapable of surviving without a Big Brother protecting them.

you take the the word sandbox and misinterpret it as the priviledge to play outside of the base rules and laws, which simply isn’t a thing that truly makes sense. there is no specialization in PvE, Mike. There are things to do, which are PvE, in a PvP (aka natural laws) universe.

you fail to understand that this game is based on natural laws and evolution. unless you understand that weak, genetically inferior (in context of evolution) need to die for the betterment of the genepool, there is no point in moving forward inany discussions, Mike, because your base is wrong.

i don’t mean that bad or anything, honestly. in your world the weak have a right to exist, but in eve they don’t. since 2003. Evolution is what runs this game, and that’s why the weak and complaining ones, who require protection to exist, are having such a hard time moving forward.

a hundred years ago these people definitely wouldn’t have lived long, though to be fair, a hundred years ago people didn’t get raised into self entitled princesses. it’s a real life political thing, actually going far beyond the realms of the game, but this has no room for discussion here.

Anyhow, to hopefully convince you of the futility in believing that a game that is based on evolution should have room for the genetically inferior: CCP is, for a few years now, on the way of equalizing PvE and PvP, rendering the difference moot. Most carebears will either get a seperate realm (aka NewSpace) that allows them to isolate themselves from the rest of the world, or they will leave, being replaced by people who are truly vigilant and capable of defending themselves. the lastest new features are a big step towards raising people into fleets providing defense.

anyhow… it’s how it is. this constant discussion is silly and has its roots not only in misunderstandings about the game, but also in misunderstandings about who should and should not be playing this game. and that’s fair, really. for those there will be star citizen, and for the survivalists there will be EVE ONLINE.

How about we let this rest now…

[Old_Pervert]

Hot damn. This was one of the most beautiful things I have ever read on these forums.

[Lena_Crews]

None of that changes the fact that it makes sense to me to log off people who are away from their keyboards for extended periods of time (cloaked or not).

Just because I would prefer to only have people listed as being in the sandbox who are actually… IN the sandbox. Not out for a walk with their dog or something.

Oh… and if you want to “let it rest”… the best way to start is to stop posting. Not write a novel.

[Old_Pervert]

@Lena_Crews

None of that changes the fact that it makes sense to me to log off people who are away from their keyboards for extended periods of time (cloaked or not).

None of it is justification for logging them off either. Other than the fact that you don’t like having them in your space.

@Lena_Crews

Just because I would prefer to only have people listed as being in the sandbox who are actually… IN the sandbox. Not out for a walk with their dog or something.

CCP has explicitly stated that they did not intend for local channel to be used for intel. Their being listed in the sandbox is 100% irrelevant to the subject at hand.

[Mike_Voidstar]

No one is trying to remove anyone else’s playstyle.

The AFK cloaker doesn’t have a separate or unique playstyle. Hunting PvE ships is a playstyle, but you don’t need cloaks to do that, and certainly adjusting them so that they weren’t OP garbage would not destroy it.

In fact, they do come close to asking for it to be removed. They don’t actually say it, but the bias is there in several posts that claim that PvE players don’t have a right to play the game at all. Not just Parasol, it goes back years, several of the more abusive posters on the cloak side have made that view well known.

Of course, they don’t actually want that. The thing that seperates EVE from Battlefield aside from spaceships is the need for resources to build the ship and the very real loss associated with destruction. The consequences, if you will. They enjoy inflicting that on others, and so would not ask for a game where everyone has an equal starting point in fights and no real consequence for losing.

[Mike_Voidstar]

Ummm… Ok. You do you.

The game is marketed differently now that it was many years ago, but it was never a purely PvP game.

Your rhetoric is pretty blind, especially for someone who thinks the game relies on evolution.

[Old_Pervert]

@Mike_Voidstar

but you don’t need cloaks to do that

That’s like saying you don’t need a 100MN VNI to do your ratting in. No. You don’t need it. You like it because it works good. Just as cloaks work good for hunting PVE ships.

@Mike_Voidstar

They don’t actually say it, but the bias is there in several posts that claim that PvE players don’t have a right to play the game at all

They’ve every right to play “the game”. They do not have a right to rat with impunity and disregard, because I play the same game they do, and I’d love very much to shoot them in the game that we both play. Net result, your right is to PVE and my right is to do PVP. You may not want to do PVP with me, but that is how this game works.

@Mike_Voidstar

They enjoy inflicting that on others, and so would not ask for a game where everyone has an equal starting point in fights and no real consequence for losing

You’ve never tried to fight a hot drop, have you? Those can go wrong incredibly fast if you end up dropping on someone who knows how to fight.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Mike_Voidstar

The AFK cloaker doesn’t have a separate or unique playstyle. Hunting PvE ships is a playstyle, but you don’t need cloaks to do that, and certainly adjusting them so that they weren’t OP garbage would not destroy it.

In fact, they do come close to asking for it to be removed. They don’t actually say it, but the bias is there in several posts that claim that PvE players don’t have a right to play the game at all. Not just Parasol, it goes back years, several of the more abusive posters on the cloak side have made that view well known.

Of course, they don’t actually want that. The thing that seperates EVE from Battlefield aside from spaceships is the need for resources to build the ship and the very real loss associated with destruction. The consequences, if you will. They enjoy inflicting that on others, and so would not ask for a game where everyone has an equal starting point in fights and no real consequence for losing.

Cloaks are a way to at least partially circumvent the power of local as an intel tool. Cloaks allow for asymmetric warfare. And before you get on your butthurt horse, yes asymmetric warfare is “unfair”, it is right there in the name for God’s sake, “asymmetric warfare”.

Asymmetric warfare (or asymmetric engagement) is war between belligerents whose relative military power differs significantly, or whose strategy or tactics differ significantly. This is typically a war between a standing, professional army and an insurgency or resistance movement.

When you go deep into a region held by a hostile force those doing so are at a disadvantage. In short you already have and advantage and here you are on your butthurt horse whining about cloaks. You have the advantage of an intel network. You have the advantage of having ships, ammo, etc. being close at hand. You have a JB network. You have POS and citadels as well. Chances are that you even have capital reinforcements much, much closer. You have all these advantages and yet “Oh booo-hooo woe is me…cloaks…cloaks!!!”

And nobody is saying that they don’t have a right to play the game. They just don’t have a right to insulate themselves from the rest of the game while they effect the rest of the game in turn. That is totally antithetical to the philosophy of the game. You cannot honestly ask to be allowed to influence the game while at the same time not letting “the game influence you”.

Removing cloaks is a move towards making it more difficult “the game to influence” those doing PvE. It makes going deep into a hostile region more problematic, especially as a solo hunter or a small group. Covert cynos and cloaks are specifically designed for a small group to penetrate deep into hostile territory and do Bad Things™ to the owners of that territory.

As for equal starting point, those in a region where they have a hostile group harassing them actually do have the advantage. The fight is already unequal and things like covert ops cloaks and cynos do give the harassing for an edge in terms of asymmetric warfare. But to a well organized and PvP oriented group this should not be a significant threat.

[Mike_Voidstar]

Yes, they have every right to play the game.

It’s understood that you very much would like to shoot them.

What of those that would very much like to shoot the Cloaked Ship before he is ready to be interfered with?

There is nothing in the game that isn’t PvP on some level. Perhaps you should be forced to compete with them in mining or ratting instead of direct combat. Or is does that only ever work one way?

[Mike_Voidstar]

BS.

None of those so called advantages exist if you aren’t allowed to apply any of them.

I could have a million titans nearby, quadrillion rounds of ammo, 100 POS in system, etc… and none of it matters if I’m not allowed to apply it

Due to the magic safety button he can wait and pick a time and place where none of that is a factor. That’s perfectly fine so long as he has to maintain his own safety, but he doesn’t. His magic safety button allows him to circumvent all of that effortlessly except for a minor bit of setup.

It’s hilarious that you can argue with any degree of sincerity that the PVE guy can’t insulate himself from the rest of the game when that is exactly what the cloaked guy is doing with a fraction of the effort. In fact, only with a cloak is that even possible, as people can and do get into these systems all the time or else this thread would not exist. I mean, if a camper can’t get in, he can’t camp… yet there they are. So there is no insulation for those in space, except for those that push their magic safety button.

[Old_Pervert]

@Mike_Voidstar

What of those that would very much like to shoot the Cloaked Ship before he is ready to be interfered with?

Smartbombs, bubble camps, instalocking cepters. These will all give a bomber a very bad day (which is generally what cloaky campers camp in).

@Mike_Voidstar

There is nothing in the game that isn’t PvP on some level. Perhaps you should be forced to compete with them in mining or ratting instead of direct combat. Or is does that only ever work one way?

You’re confusing your opponent there. Your opponents are not the people shooting you, but the other people who mine/do indy stuff. You can easily view PVPers as the reason you can charge what you do for your mining mats. If it was risk free, I’d have 15 toons in the belts cranking out all the ore I’d ever need, 23/7.

As for ratting, the rats will shoot me half the time that I land on you in a site, so you could consider that about the same as competition.
EDIT:
Consider that even I as a PVP player need to make isk some time. I do it by ratting in a carrier. It’s remarkably easy to ignore cloaky campers.

@Mike_Voidstar

Due to the magic safety button he can wait and pick a time and place where none of that is a factor.

Just as you can by docking in a station. If you want to wait him out, wait him out. If he wants to wait you out, he’ll wait you out. You’re both doing the exact same thing.

The only difference is you feel he shouldn’t be allowed to try and wait you out, for a good time to attack.

Rat. In. Groups.

[Mike_Voidstar]

All the smartbombs, bubblecamps and instalocking interceptors in the universe can’t interfere with a cloaked ship until it chooses to allow it.

I’m confusing nothing. My point is that you don’t like them doing PvE unchallenged, despite using hundreds of manhours dealing with defense fleets, holding sov, maintaining structures, and such. Rather than feeling entitled to a direct pew upon their activities, imposing your playstyle on them, perhaps you should be forced to engage in their playstyle against your will.

[Jint_Hikaru]

@Mike_Voidstar

No one is trying to remove anyone else’s playstyle.

The AFK cloaker doesn’t have a separate or unique playstyle. Hunting PvE ships is a playstyle, but you don’t need cloaks to do that, and certainly adjusting them so that they weren’t OP garbage would not destroy it.

Wait… AFK or Hunting? which is it? If they are hunting you, then they are not AFK.

So are you here against AFK players or Cloaked players?
(far too often these threads claim to be about AFK Cloaks, but really seem to want to nerf all form of cloaked gamplay as well)

Also Cloaky ships are not OP… they are fragile, need to take up a slot with covert-ops cloak, have targeting delay after decloaking (as far as I can remember)…

[Old_Pervert]

@Mike_Voidstar

I’m confusing nothing. My point is that you don’t like them doing PvE unchallenged, despite using hundreds of manhours dealing with defense fleets, holding sov, maintaining structures, and such. Rather than feeling entitled to a direct pew upon their activities, imposing your playstyle on them, perhaps you should be forced to engage in their playstyle against your will.

I do rat. Like I said, I rat in a carrier to finance my PVP. I do it in nullsov, where we get cloaky camped perhaps once a month. Right now it’s one better because we’re being camped by the people we’re in conflict with, and they’ve dropped supers several times. We are legitimately camped in, because our caps are all staged at the front.

So, as someone who is camped in with literally zero answer, allow me to say it: I don’t care.

You know what I do? I do my PI. I wait for when they are logged off, which it has happened a couple times and rat in my battleship. I don’t let the camper impact my playstyle, because I’ve no illusion that the space I’m in belongs to us only when we can assert ourselves over it.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Mike_Voidstar

There is nothing in the game that isn’t PvP on some level. Perhaps you should be forced to compete with them in mining or ratting instead of direct combat. Or is does that only ever work one way?

Most people who PvP also PvE and you might be surprised…they might just kick your ass all over the place when it comes to mining. You are talking about players who organize 1, 2, 3, or more fleets. They handle logistics for hundreds even thousands of players.

@Mike_Voidstar

None of those so called advantages exist if you aren’t allowed to apply any of them.

Then apply them for crying out loud! Go use them.

@Mike_Voidstar

I could have a million titans nearby, quadrillion rounds of ammo, 100 POS in system, etc… and none of it matters if I’m not allowed to apply it

Nothing is stopping you. Nothing…except you.

@Mike_Voidstar

Due to the magic safety button he can wait and pick a time and place where none of that is a factor. That’s perfectly fine so long as he has to maintain his own safety, but he doesn’t. His magic safety button allows him to circumvent all of that effortlessly except for a minor bit of setup.

If you h ave people with alts sitting in fortizars on a citadel, you are ratting in a fleet and you have cynos fit on your ships…guess what, you are applying that advantage.

Really, It is hard to disagree wtih @yellow_parasol when he trots out the word coward. What kind of a chicken ■■■■ do you have to be not to utilize the considerable advantage that owning sov grants you.

@Mike_Voidstar

It’s hilarious that you can argue with any degree of sincerity that the PVE guy can’t insulate himself from the rest of the game when that is exactly what the cloaked guy is doing with a fraction of the effort.

Did you get stupid or something? I explicitly said that the PvE guy cannot do something to have an impact on the rest of the game and also be insulated from the rest of the game. By fitting a cloak and using it at a safe and going AFK that player is having as much impact as being docked up. And please lets not hear the “cloaks = stations” idiotic dribblings again. Nobody is saying a cloak is a station, but that the safety is commensurate.

Seriously, a good station trader will have a much, much larger impact on the game environment that a guy in a cloak. Yet this is the one thing that has you so butthurt.

@Mike_Voidstar

All the smartbombs, bubblecamps and instalocking interceptors in the universe can’t interfere with a cloaked ship until it chooses to allow it.

Yup, working as intended.

@Mike_Voidstar

I’m confusing nothing. My point is that you don’t like them doing PvE unchallenged…

Yes, already been explained why.

@Mike_Voidstar

…despite using hundreds of manhours dealing with defense fleets, holding sov, maintaining structures, and such.

Yes, but now you won’t even use a fraction of that effort to try and use your space when a hostile is there and cloaked up. You trot out the “hundreds of man hours” argument when it suits you but you then turn into the laziest player in the world when one guy in a cloaked ship shows up. You can’t even get out there in your own cloaked ship using the map and intel tools and other players to see if…gasp they have a BLOPs fleet in the region. You do know that your steadfast refusal to even do basic crap like patrol your region in a cloaky or interceptor really underscores @yellow_parasol’s point, right?

@Mike_Voidstar

Rather than feeling entitled…

Oh now that is goddamn rich.

@Mike_Voidstar

Rather than feeling entitled to a direct pew upon their activities, imposing your playstyle on them, perhaps you should be forced to engage in their playstyle against your will.

That is part of what holding sov means, that some might come and wage asymmetrical warfare against you.

@Old_Pervert

So, as someone who is camped in with literally zero answer, allow me to say it: I don’t care.

You know what I do? I do my PI.

Yup. I undock in an epithal and zip around doing that…on multiple alts and you know what the guy in the same system does? Nothing.

[Old_Pervert]

@Teckos_Pech

Yup. I undock in an epithal and zip around doing that…on multiple alts and you know what the guy in the same system does? Nothing.

If I actually fly my ships out I can 100% assert they will drop on me if they manage to find me. But my PI infrastructure can handle 2 weeks without flying a ship out. It hurts P2-4 production, but the P1 production stays at 100% so it’s easy to catch up.

It’s like I designed it knowing that there would be interruptions to my ability to fly to them.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Old_Pervert

If I actually fly my ships out I can 100% assert they will drop on me if they manage to find me. But my PI infrastructure can handle 2 weeks without flying a ship out. It hurts P2-4 production, but the P1 production stays at 100% so it’s easy to catch up.

It’s like I designed it knowing that there would be interruptions to my ability to fly to them.

I actually look at it as a challenge to do PI when a hostile is in system. Bouncing to safes, then hitting POCOs and zooming off. If I lose the epithal and even the PI materials…oh well, I knew the risks.

[Old_Pervert]

Given how easily it is to avoid getting dropped on (dock up except when overwatch is up if we’re being camped) our alliance has a killboard protection policy… such a loss would warrant 2x your killmail’s isk value to the holding corp. It encourages people to not be dumb.

There are certainly exceptions. Accidents like logoff traps, whatever. But if someone goes out when the campers are literally on and in local, you better not get caught lol. Basically if you do a dumb you pay for it… which is counterproductive when you are trying to make isk, not lose it.

Of course the big question of why, is really not that big. Content denial for the campers (both present and any getting any future ideas). We deny them any engagement we don’t think we can win. It discourages future camping attempts.

[Mike_Voidstar]

So you dock up like a coward?

Interesting…