Your vassal state and us have been in a war for ever since the Great Rebellion. There was some hope of peace after the Battle of Tears, with the Ray, but that was the exception, not the rule.
You want to stand on a pedestal here but the only reason you can do it is because you have not deigned to get your own hands dirty before.
Well, if you are, I’d argue that is a collective choice you made and which you - more importantly - perpetuate. Perpetuate in a time where there is less and less need to do so.
And I never argued that you are free of Amarr influence or the Empire’s. I argued that you’re free enough to not need to put responsibility for the conditions you live in squarely and exclusively at the feet of the Empire.
The coups you have had might have us Amarr as a partial reason behind them, but we didn’t cause them. We didn’t go there and acted upon you to have a coup. It’s been your actions and to me it’s clear where the responsibility goes, there.
I argue, that you are free enough to not say “All we do is due to the Amarr leaving us no other option.” and instead to say “I do this because I think it’s the best option.” Because, as I see it, there are options.
Because, if we were able to leave you no other option, the way Arrendis makes it sound, you never had the option to rebel.
So, as I said, it’s a question of quantity and quality of influence. And the quantity and quality is not such that you can stick all the responsibility for your condition to the Amarr. That’s all I’m saying.
Nicoletta
That’s only because it’s never ended. And will not, while our kin remain enslaved.
This might have been so 15 years ago.
But a little late for that argument now.
These are the same truth from a different perspective.
And you have a clear political imperative to be confrontational toward the Empire. Presumably on the Republic’s account just belligerent enough to ensure popular support, clearly fringe terrorist groups like Ushra’Khan are not so concerned with civilian casualties on either side.
This has to be one of the stupidest straw men I’ve ever seen. At no point have I said ‘all we do is due to the Amarr leaving us no other option’. What I said was that the Amarr Empire made us who we are—and they did. The Amarr Empire made the Minmatar into the people we have been since the Rebellion, due to the lingering impact of slavery and the continued need to be ready to go to war against its continuation and now resumed expansion. Who we are now is a result of that foundation, and a result of that continued need to be reactive to the Empire.
Do we have other options, other courses of action we could take? Certainly. Should we take them? Possibly. Will we, though?
Not bloody likely. Why not? Because who we are is not a people who are inclined to take those other courses of action. And we are not people who are inclined to take those other courses of action because that is not the people we were made into by the Amarr Empire and its centuries of systematic abuse.
I say we never had the option not to. We were too large, too stubborn, and too widespread to avoid rebellion on some scale. Just as we were too large and widespread not to have that rebellion not be unanimous. It was inevitable that there would be a rebellion, just as it was inevitable that not all of us would be freed.
That’s because we don’t have the luxury of playing that game. The war never ended, and as long as the Amarr have a religious mandate to enslave us, it never will be. It will just get cold from time to time. We don’t have a choice but to stay on guard against you.
You folks here surely like to talk. Like a lot. Good thing that all most of you do or the cluster would be even in more trouble.
The quoted parts of one of Elsebeth’ contribution were very good tho. Especially considering where she currently is and where she is not…
We stand by our promise that we will retaliate any and all actions of house Sarum and their willing minions against our people.
The ratio we set is more then fair considering the suffering for the Amarrians while not short will come to an end.
There is no appeasement. If they get away with this they will never stop.
The illusion that there will be peace while our people are still enslaved runs deep within many here.
You consider us a threat to our people? For us the ones seeking peace are the ones endangering our people and their future by not only ignoring those of our people that are still in chains but they also seem to think that people like our noble Lord Sarum here will ever stop to seek our enslavement.
More trouble for instance than a crowd of lunatics picking a fight with a Royal Heir-Elect resulting in the decision to reclaim the population of a planet in its entirety, that kind of trouble?
In my eyes, it always boils down to one of two things; those who’s lack of morals make them fine with the enslavement of other nations and people in general, turning them into mindless TCMC’d drones to do their bidding, and then those who’s morals do not allow this and take a stand against it.
The bickering in between is and always will be irrelevant.
Taking action and standing against the oppression comes in two forms, political and through force, if the former fails it is those who are ready to man their ships and fight that make a difference. Those who stand against it gain my respect, regardless of their views on my posts here.
It is black and white and the war will never be over until our people are free from their chains and masters.
I have inclinations. As a grown-up woman I can deliberate on those and decide whether or not to follow them. So, either, you are able to decide whether or not you follow your inclinations - then the Amarr are not responsible for the course of action you are taking. Or not.
When you are claiming that you really will follow your inclinations - even against better judgement - you are exactly raising this claim: “All we do is due to the Amarr leaving us no other option.” You claim that even though there are other options, you won’t take them up, because the Amarr made you into the kind of people that don’t or are really, really bad at that. That is quite a deep reaching kind of leaving you no other options. It’s basically saying that the Amarr took your free will away or at least inflicted a severe form of akrasia on you.
Incidentally, that is the very definition of a slave by nature: Someone who won’t do what is best for them, against better knowledge, because they are basically unable to resist their inclinations.
So, you’re saying we made you into the kind of people that will rebel? That the Matari were not stubborn and rebllious to begin with?
Hmmmn, it’s a wonder how we ever succeded in integrating and assimilating people through slavery, given that our methods appear to make others into stubborn and rebellious people.
This constant back and forth of who is more in the right to attack the other, genocide civilians, enslave commoners, and the like is such ■■■■■■■■. The only reason any of this is even being argued about is because neither side is willing to relent on dialing their vengeance to eleven. The Republic are so hellbent on revenge that they’ve forgotten that they are free - the Imperials are so hellbent on loyalty to their liege that they’ve apparently forgotten God’s law stands above man’s. No-one here is willing to do what is right in favor of striking back at their enemy, as if virtue and vengeance can’t co-exist.
“If I have to choose between defending the Empire and denouncing slavery, I’ll choose the Empire”
“If I have to choose between killing Amarr civilians and preventing the enslavement of ours, I’ll choose genocide.”
This is insane. It’s lunacy of the highest order. We as capsuleers have an imperative to do better than the rampant destruction that is expected of us. More than that, we have the ability and the choice to do better than that. Political ramifications and physical incapability might prevent me from outright destroying all of you for this indignity, but I don’t have to support it in the least bit.
You bring shame to your houses, your clans, and everything you stand for. Have your war, but remember that not a single one of you was willing to do the right thing in the face of pure, unadulterated evil.
It’s curious really, that we failed to have such an effect on the Udorians, the Ealur or Ni-Kunni.
It really isn’t, given the sizes of those populations. Even the Ni-Kunni were only a single world.
Just as a minor point, it’s their god’s law that says they have to be blindly obedient to their liege and commands them to annihilate every other culture in order to force everyone else to be Amarr.
It is perhaps ironic then, the most populous tribe coming closest to reclamation. Other of course than the Nefantar.
I’ve never had time to check thoroughly enough to be certain. Nor has almost anyone else.
It’s an argument I’m not willing to have at current as it is fruitless to debate with Amarr who believe themselves the only true interpreters of their faith. The Scriptures mention servitude, but not in chains, nor forced, and the Book of Reclaiming was only ever codified in said scriptures after it became convenient for the Emperor to justify the enslavement of the Udorians.
But I’m just a heretic, so what the hell do I know
The nature of the faith is such that it wasn’t the who or even the interpretation that I was questioning. Only the apparent certainty.
The scriptures are vast, and not always in accord.
Follow your God, not your leaders. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.
Maybe then, apply Occams razor and just reduce the theory of why the assimilation and integration of the Matari failed to the cause being ‘the population size was too big’, rather than claiming that Amarr was able to turn so many people effectively into stubborn, rebellious people, that couldn’t really do anything else than rebel and then live in a perpetual state of war against the Empire?