sadly have to agree, this is a captcha in disguise
next? miner lasers/weapons/reppers will decycle randomly?
ratters drones dock if not pressing f regulary?
all in the name of proving non-afkness
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Defensive gameplay got utterly flipped on its arse, mate. I used to “defend” against roamers in a flash form, but now? Nah. They’ll filament away at the slightest hint of possibility of losing their tackle frigate.
WRONG.
They are looking for cheap kills. Anything more serious heading their way, poof, abyssal trace. Filaments enable this too hard.
As long as the nerf is not “can be activated lowsec only” it’s a pointless nerf.
That’ll just make them not login for a couple of hours. Because if my gameplay would be “trying to not get pve removed for hours 23/7” (and that’s what I get for living close to lowsec gate), I would not have time to actually do it anyway, and be forced to log a hisec clone and do it there.
I am not there to be your on-demand content you can engage at your leisure, without any benefits for me in it.
I literally don’t agree with a single thing you said. So we’ll park it there and agree to disagree.
I don’t expect anybody to be my on-demand content, but I do expect null krabs to have to make a choice when I turn up between safety and seeing enough harm come to their farming grounds for it to be a valid choice. It’s incredibly bad game design to have the optimal strategy be to dock/tether up and wait for them to leave.
Time for another 100 posts to read and respond to, since its 15 minutes between entries.
Set it to the default PvP item instead? Is that right?
This was mentioned on Talking In Stations, in that it makes no sense that criminality and standing have no impact on the ability to dock in high security space. Its silly that in Null a hostile person cannot be ejected from a citadel by its owners, a Keepstar needs 500 or so marines as inputs, not like more than half a dozen of them are needed to arrest one unarmed capuleer sleeping in the captain’s quarters?
You mean they should not be aqchorable within 1000km of a citadel? Maybe, but then if its a lone afk cloaked, I’d just dump them off in a haven or sanctum, since its unlikely a solo dropper will have the tank to take out the mobile observatory before the NPC’s kill them.
What is that group that prided themselves on “We aren’t here to ruin the game, just your game?”
Filaments are totally broken and should not be useable outside of high security space.
You give it too much credit.
Which is why people are asking for longer delays to cloak reactivation, or heat damage, or some other kind of impact that forces you to leave or log off.
What if I told you there is a station in low security space where these jump freighters must dock at in lonetrek where there is a permanently cloaky dude sitting outside waiting for them to undock from a kick out station to be dunked on?
Absolutely true.
You get decloaked, a message shows up on the screen telling you who’s mobile observatory decloaked you.
The new structures are not supposed to be deployable in wormhole space, nor in high security space, so its not like the guy wouldn’t have know you were there anyway. Also, this person died because they flew a shitty T1 transport full of cargo expanders without escort into a wormhole. You could have killed them with a vigilant fleet issue and a gank catalyst.
Look at Jita local and say with a straight face that this solution is not already ignored by botters?
It cannot be too hard, there is one guy with 200 accounts doing it across whole regions.
If someone is cloaked in high security space, it does not bother me. If its a war larget and cloaked, the bit to focus on first is war target and cloaked second.
Its not about a kill mail, its about reducing the usefulness of a whole system, though, that its typical of AFK cloaky apologists to spout such distractions.
I waited 2 days on a mobile depot left by a cloaky camping rapier that liked to drop bubbles 100km off gates to trap industry ships. Killed the depot, explained pleasantries in local, and he left never to be seen again.
You shouldn’t be moving those things around Solo. Cloak isn’t the problem, its the warpable cyno beacon everyone in the system can warp to when you cyno in. So you are either blowing up a recon with every jump, or going to a beacon, both of which you should be afraid to do.
Can you bridge in? If no, then that seems broken.
Couldn’t quote your screen cap of the log, but if there is a text log its too easy to bot with a macro, making this module meaningless.
Yeah, CCP test server is messed up.
Bring more people, shoot the structure.
A baited AFK camper? A camper that fights isn’t AFK.
Well, this kind of change makes me feel more inclined to go back to Null, now that there is something worth shooting at.
You said it all, things just have not been the same since the war in Narnia ended.
It doesn’t help it creates an entry in the combat log, to easy to consume with a program that macro’s the recloak.
I am very comfortable with this, gives a purpose to scanning skills and ships other than looting relic/data sites.
True, but where bot detection fails miserably, game mechanics are the only other option.
Then it would never loose immunity.
Just be glad its not the bad old days where bombers would decloak other bombers, even if they were all cloaked.
People will say this is too far, but maybe too far is just right the first run through.
As oppose to target painting vigils?
Scrams, Disruptors, painters, weapon disruptors etc, need to be inpacted by RNG the same way ECM is, then everything will be equal, as right now all those modules work all of the time.
Jita would be empty an hour after DT and the login count would be pitiful.
Amen to that.
Make it play that sonar sound from the old navy war movies, going ‘ding ding ding ding’ as everyone falls about from the depth charges.
Yes. So they have to scan you down and ‘get you’ before you recloak.
In high security space, as soon as possible.
Filaments? Or do you just want a carousel of PvE ships to blow up like the game with the ducks at the fair?
No, it was terrible because stepping outside when you don’t know if there are 50 guys out there or not is inviting danger, whilst the blocks laughed about it from under their big blue super umbrella.
Heaven forbid people have to get out from under their cloaks and actually organise enough people for a stand up fight.
After what, 18 years of the status quo?
If you bothered to test it on Singularity you would know this is not the case.
Combat scanners still broken too.
Why? Something preventing you from pushing the cloak button to hide again?
Removal of cloaks from the game in exchange for no local? You’ll still whine about citadels off gates giving early warning and people docking up when a roaming fleet comes nearby.
Eve is full of delusional people.
Don’t be silly, a couple of logistic ships, some damps, and soon enough you have an actual fight brewing.
I remember watching a carrier get dropped and everyone spamming start convo or duel with them so they couldn’t click any of their modules…
Its not supposed to be hard, its an area that you hack out of the woods to turn into your own vision of society,
No, because the combat log entry trigged the macro to re-cloak.
No, its because the players carved out a empire around those systems and you’re too lazy to raise your own military to tear it down.
High security space is less safe than Null, not because null is inherently safe, but because High security space is full of bullies who have been shielded from consequence by CCP.
Still is
Therein lies the problem, the fact cloaky camping has been with us for so long, its delevopled a sense of entitlement among those who seem to feel its a legitimate gameplay.
Its not your hunter tank we care about, its the fact it will bridge in 100’s of friends.
Safe log, before you drop off a log.
Complete immunity.
Get a laptop or pull a leaf out of the TiDi books and get adult diapers.
No, you need to be able to de cloak them consistently to get rid of them.
If they are truly not AFK, then they can warp to another location while waiting for the cloak to re engage.
Never ever ever have I heard an FC say they wished for more stealth bombers instead of mainline DPS.
Jump fatigue was great, I wish it was still a thing, problem is it only affected those who didn’t have a string of alts to spread fatigue out with.
Running anomalies as a group is very poor ISK/hr and only necessary if there is a need for increased safety.
That is not the mechanic though, its wait for the cloak cool down and re engage.
The hunting community got tether removed for supers and titans on medium/large structures and they still were not happy. Blackout happened and after the first week they all complained because nobody wanted to play. Hunters have had cloaking in their favour for almost two decades, so pardon the rest of us who are tried of the constant whining.
Solo PVP in Null is dead. Get over it.
It will not be missed.
Yeah, 180% bounty in some systems means running a black ops battleship can give decent income ninja killing battleships from sites.
Some people just want everything done for them.
Only if they are too lazy to log off or recloak every 15 minutes.
For a 40 million ISK single use, structure, hell no.
Max number is 10 on the test server.
Another 100 posts read. Test server still has broken scanning probes.
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That actually got me thinking for a second. What about this:
A war declaration to allow disabling. As long as attacker has to bear the costs and limitations of wardec (like having war hq that can be maimed), and has a time window to disable (because pretty much nobody can defend 23/7, we have lives, mate), I’m totally ok with attackers coming and disabling pve activities. So you have to declare your intent, pay the cost, and come at the vulnerability window - all in the name of seeing people actively defending against you. How does this sound?
So lets iterate their choices:
- Form up, lose hours of their life responding to ping, see you filament out because you chicken.
- Form up short, lose hours of their life wasted doing pve invested in their ships, then lose pve.
- Do not form up, lose hours of pve, do it in hisec instead cursing you and the game design that did it to them.
I just gotta ask: which do you think a rational human being would choose?
Yeah, lowsec is still part of the 4 NPC empires. It is better if CCP ban capital ships there and add penalties on illegal activities.
what we really need is blackout back in dullsec. that will stop the krabs!
under the sea!
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Read the MER.
Krabs are already pretty much stopped. Humans can’t rat with DBS and MESS (bots are responsible for more than 50% of ratting nowadays), and mining was removed from nullsec, so there’s nothing to krab.
We’re already at blackout numbers indy-wise, and going below actually.
Reading through this thread, there appears to be a lack of awareness about why ships remain cloaked for extended periods of time that are not cloaky camping.
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Capitals operating in hostile space need to use cloak while they’re waiting out their jump fatigue timer. Since the jump fatigue timer goes up to 30 minutes, if they get decloaked faster then 30 minutes they are helpless which means any decloak mechanic faster then that effectively prevents that use of capitals.
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In a similar way, drop fleets operating in hostile space need to wait for their fatigue and new target opportunities. For the bombers and T3Cs this is not a major problem as T2 cloaks allow you to cycle the cloak mid warp. However the Black Ops Battleships have a problem, they can not safely cycle their cloak without being at risk at being probed down.
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Related. Drop fleets can now no longer take a break for food/bio while in hostile space without being decloaked. This essentially makes ‘deeper’ drop fleets where you go 2 or more mids unfeasible.
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Bombing bombers. While the bombers themselves will usually not need to be cloaked for more then 15 minutes, the auxiliary ships that make bombing possible do. The blockade runners bringing extra bombs for those longer fights, the black ops battleship bridging the fleet in and out of the system, the covert ops cynos, the probing ship that allows the bombers to warp on target. All these ships having to flash their cloak aside from adding much more risk is a massive quality of life reduction to an activity that’s been continually nerfed for years.
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Of those points
- It’s not losing hours of their life - I’m talking minutes, the point is a rage response, quick, we’ve got a neutral xyz’ing something, we need to stop him before xyz. Yes the consequences couldn’t be too severe, they would need to be proportionate of course but the current system is rubbish
- Fair point, that would need some thinking about, I wouldn’t want to penalise people that do turn up and lose as long as it isn’t warping in a sacrificial noob ship etc
- I was talking max a couple of hours, in one system, there shouldn’t be an expectation to always farm the same system. Moving across a system or two should be a valid consideration to avoid hunters and would boost gate activity which would be a welcome side effect
I’m not getting into the wardec system, it’s of zero interest to me and i’m therefore not qualified to have an opinion on that
In any case, I’m not putting forward any one solution as the answer. The point is, (some) cloaky camping is a consequence of continued nerfing of roaming/hunting. If the typical response to a neutral’s response is to dock/tether the second they pop up in local and wait for them to leave - which was the situation long before filaments. Hunters are going to set things up so they can sit there long term to stop such passive and negative tactics. CCP haven’t addressed the problems with roaming/hunting, which should have been addressed in conjunction with “the cloaky problem” and this “solution” is too blunt, the consequences on other covert gameplay haven’t been properly considered.
you guys mean if u at a safespot(like the afkers) then u can recloak without ill effects, hunters are not at safespots one cant do anything there, one cant just recloak in the middle of a bomberfleet or while aproaching a target ongrid
this change does not aim to solve botting (and wont even if it aims to) it intends to solve “regular” afkers
as in the same vane one should not be ratting wo a defence fleet
this is the case in wh, and yet ratters are killed there, so no, the issue isnt the anoms
the whole point of combating bots is to make the game better for players, therfore changes that hostile to some gameplay in order to combat botting are useless at best
one brings vigil because one does not care, one does not bring bomber because one does not care
bait! haha
no but decloaking in the middle of a run does
that too, still ,hard as well
so instead of balancing hs, break null too? great idea
if its afk it does not recloak, hence: one only need to decloak them once to get rid of them
thats the same as saying: if u dont want to be decloked dont cloak in the first place, or better dont come into null
same as saying living in null does not worth it get over it, makes no sense does it?
sure, not by u, because its not yours, what would u say if yours would be on the line? oh we know:
since i had better idea, should please all sides, not completely, at least better than this iteration
“Mobile Observatories – Live on Singularity - #304 by Tima_Shailee”
Well… autoclickers can easily solve that for the bot if the popup appears in the same position every time so…
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again:
this change wants not and will not solve bots/botting in any way, it could solve “regular”-afk-campers, and if done correctly it wont F up rest of cloaking (in null) in the process
a popup + lack of click solves afkers
Actually it goes past hours and into days and even weeks.
It is, on average, between 15 and 30 minutes per ping, going over an hour for an active wh for example. At busy times, we had 4-7 pings per day. So it was literally HOURS, but EVERY SINGLE DAY, easily crossing into DAYS over the course of a month.
So we’re not talking minutes here. We’re talking a constant stream of losing hours and days to this bs, which, in this filament-enabled galaxy, nets ZERO in both kills and other things. It’s literally being treated as content, and paying subscription for it, which is beyond rubbish, it’s completely unacceptable.
Filaments removal and a nerf to ganktarding would be a good start to fix this situation, but with ratting and mining removed from nullsec by recent changes, I afraid we’re too late for that.
With respect, that’s a result of either not enough people pulling their weight or an expectation to respond to every roamer with large numbers. It doesn’t need a region/alliance wide ping, it needs the people the farming system to dock up, grab some ships and push the roamers away. Everybody living in null sec should be actively defending their territory. Not waiting for better players to do it for them, not waiting for a blob to be formed, not hiding behind long timers and large HP grinds. If players took responsibility for themselves there wouldn’t be constant pings and they might even enjoy PVP and learn how to engage without an FC holding their hand
2 Likes
Yeah, some FC’s haven’t crossed over to the dark side yet, lol. Anyway, where you quoted from specified “solo hunting sb”.
We did that on occasion, the region in question not being a rich one and we being a small corp. “Very poor isk/hr” ? Corp ops for income, 100% taxes for a few hours ? Good income even.
Ran enough tests on Sisi to say with 100% confidence that uncloaking and recloaking, regardless of timer expiry will reset the timer back to 15 min.
What a stupid update.
Short version:
It will not affect the main problem in any case : botting vs cloaky-camping
Completly contrary the pilots now called as “AFK campers” will simply use scripts as well.
Active CovOps pilots who cannot fly to the OffGrid SP for a short time now have to suffer from this.
But PA / CCP is more likely to forego a few dozen active players than hundreds of bots, which make the server look well-attended 23/7.
Long version:
The core of the problem is in the game design from 2003, which makes it necessary and over all possible to multibox.
a) The main reason for the AFK / Botting is the stupid boredom with mineing and rating.
B) The next point is profitability. A new Gila Alpha pilot including ship are armotized on the same day.
C) The chance of being banned by CCP for using multible AlphaClones in VM is close to zero, and even if there is, an alpha pilot has nothing to lose and will just recreated.
Solutions have been postulated here and on Reddit for years like :
-Replace the bounties with tags / items which have to be collected.
-GreenSites have to be scanned before you can fly to them
-Delayed Local for 120sec
and many more and often …
But now a problem is being tackled by a hot needle that actually doesn’t exist.
Bots cannot complain and will die without any comment, in the rare cases that the Intel script fails.
And active pilots shouldn’t have any problems with cloaky-campers while ratting as long they don’t watch Netflix or are outside with the dog.
But I’ve also been a programmer long enough to know that right now, in this moment, dozens of very clever console jockeys have their scripts to avoid decloaking in the beta test.
Probably the same guys that wrote the rattingsbots .
Cos they already know the appropriate interfaces.
Conclusion:
Only active hunters will suffer from this update, little to nothing will change for the botter.
Perhaps a few dozen Hunter / Killer will leave Bunnyland aka NullSec or stop playing EvE altogether.
But PA / CCP can compensate that very well as long as the bots are considered paid customers.
just my 2 won
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This is my last post on this as we clearly play very, very differently and have different ideas of winning and losing
Sorry but I’m not buying a small alliance that’s trying to respond to hostiles independently is getting ping worthy pings every 15-30mins
Nowhere near every group of roamers would take a large number of defenders to engage reasonably either and the few that do aren’t going to filament away the second you form either
Fighting is fighting, things die, on both sides if it’s a reasonable fight, roamers will leave if the core of their fleet has been killed, that would be a success for the defender because they can return to PVE if they wish to
Everything you write reads as if you only want to engage if you can bring a sledgehammer to it. You clearly don’t want to participate in situations where losing or dying is a possibility and if that’s the case, you belong in high-sec
Lol at trying timers, been there, done that and it’s terrible. It’s not relevant to small gang pvp which is what I do. It’s just a tool to give holders 24hr to form up as much as they can in an uninteresting F1 bashing snoozefest
I suspect you don’t enjoy pvp because you do the wrong pvp, I don’t enjoy grinding structures or blobs fun either but it’s not the only way
As fond as I have long been of the psychological metagaming to be had by messing with locals by moving into a system, cloaking up, and going to work all day, I understand that this mechanic is being abused in other ways that have significant impact and that something needed to change. I don’t think this solution is perfect, but it’s one of the better ones I’ve seen.
Some thoughts:
A. I like the idea of the 15 minute immunity, it gives some protection to people who legit need to step away from the game for a moment for a bio break, grab a snack, etc.
The only problem I see with the immunity is the potentially huge impact on people moving supers without the benefit of a Keepstar network. (I have no problem making it harder for supers to move, but I don’t like the idea of adding one more relative advantage to structure owners.) You need 15 minutes to safely log off in order to wait out any timers. I suggest making the immunity period 20 minutes instead of 15; that provides enough time for a diligent player to wait out any timers, plus having the immunity period be a whole number multiple of ping cycles will make my inner math nerd happy.
B. If the intent is for cloaked players to be able to warp to an observatory and destroy it, then allowing them to be anchored within weapons range of a structure seems counterintuitive. Either balance them around being nigh indestructible, or keep them out of range of the big guns.
C. The fact that one deployable can sweep any system regardless of that system’s size seems shortsighted. Some systems in eve are huge and others are tiny, it shouldn’t take the same amount of effort to sweep them both. The easiest way to overcome this is to give the observatories a fixed radius fr their pings. I don’t have a particular radius in mind, but I’m thinking at least the max range of a scan probe.
D. The fact that any ship can carry and deploy an observatory also seems shortsighted. Cloaking requires a specialized module that carries stiff penalties for non-bonused ships, I would suggest that the counter to cloaking carry the same restrictions. Instead of a deployable, I would make the Mobile Observatory a probe, launched from something akin to a combat probe launcher. Any ship can technically fit one, but only certain ships can fit them easily. If you want to counter cloaky ships, bring a specific counter, not literally any other ship. (This may no play well with item B though.)
That’s about it. A sad, albeit necessary, move overall, but I think it could use some tweaks.
Good hunting.
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There’s apparently already a programme been written that auto decloaks and recloaks you at random intervals between 2 and 14 minutes or something like that. Took them no time to bot there way around this shite change.
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