Mobile Observatories – Live on Singularity

[Electric_Dott]

@Orca_Platypus

Every second you spent fighting, you’re losing your pve time.
Every ship that goes down, you’re losing HOURS of your pve time.

2021 null sec

[Orca_Platypus]

@Electric_Dott

2021 null sec

The point was that no matter how it goes down, you lose.
Where is the win condition?
Where is the break-even condition?
Let’s assume the “best” outcome, you chased some ganktards for 15 minutes and got some T2 modules for your effort. That’s a few mil for the entire fleet, a minute in hisec will get you more than that. You did everything humanely possible to do, and you still lose!

If all you want is a fight, please contact our diplo for setting up time, wager, numbers and doctrine, they’ll be happy to assist you with that, and there’s no need lust for krab kills if a fight is all you want. Why can’t all those ganktards just go with that? You know the answer - a fair fight is the last thing you want. You want your free krab kills, and you’ll escape by filament at the slightest chance of losing. Otherwise you’d take the fight deal, and nobody is taking it, no matter how much I offer it! Not even once!

You’re only here to defend your participation trophy for the incredible feat of showing up, and you dare to facepalm at people who live in nullsec, while refusing to face 1% of danger we face. Hypocrite!

[Mosimos]

I thank CCP for this work. But why is it not noted in the info whether it has a range of 5/14/20 AU or whether it is effective in the entire system. And I wish that I can pick up the Mobile Observatory again / put it back in the cargo.

[Tima_Shailee]

@Orca_Platypus

Where is the win condition?

eve is open ended playing or leaving it is winning depending on ones outlook

@Orca_Platypus

break-even condition

living in null is hard, being profitable all trhe time is probably even harder

@Orca_Platypus

the “best” outcome

best outcome is u enjoying your playtime

@Orca_Platypus

you’re losing your pve time

pvp is part of eve, if u want to just pve play a pve only game, or move to hs, its easy to avoid it there while still ding pve to some degree

[Electric_Dott]

@Orca_Platypus

The point was that no matter how it goes down, you lose.
Where is the win condition?
Where is the break-even condition?
Let’s assume the “best” outcome, you chased some ganktards for 15 minutes and got some T2 modules for your effort. That’s a few mil for the entire fleet, a minute in hisec will get you more than that. You did everything humanely possible to do, and you still lose!

If all you want is a fight, please contact our diplo for setting up time, wager, numbers and doctrine, they’ll be happy to assist you with that, and there’s no need lust for krab kills if a fight is all you want. Why can’t all those ganktards just go with that? You know the answer - a fair fight is the last thing you want. You want your free krab kills, and you’ll escape by filament at the slightest chance of losing. Otherwise you’d take the fight deal, and nobody is taking it, no matter how much I offer it! Not even once!

You’re only here to defend your participation trophy for the incredible feat of showing up, and you dare to facepalm at people who live in nullsec, while refusing to face 1% of danger we face. Hypocrite!

The win condition is winning the fight and driving hostiles from your farming community, I don’t see what’s difficult to understand about that. It’s not about profit, it’s not supposed to be and even if it was you’re not factoring in getting back to work

Your bravado is as weak as your logic, that’s why nobody takes you up on your offer. Offering small gangs blobs is going to get you nowhere

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Wadiest_Yong

A devblog at this point could very well state the following:
"To prove that you are not an AFK cloaked camper you will have to decloak."
That is the “solution” they are seeking to implement.
While your remark “warp to a safe, decloak and recloak, warp back…” on its own is proof of not being an AFK pilot, so is “warp to a safe, warp back” or “warp” or even “dscan”. or “change speed”. But none of this matters.

That’s because none of that matters to what they were trying to do - it wasn’t just “prove you’re not AFK” it’s “let’s give defenders a chance to kill AFK cloaked ships.” Which, honestly, given how easy it will be for a non-AFK player to get around these, is what it does.

@Wadiest_Yong

Another proof that cloaking itself is being targeted, not AFK cloaked camping:
On Singularity I deployed an Observatory in a wormhole. It was functional and decloaked my ship after

CCP Rise has already stated elsewhere that these won’t be deployable in wormholes when they hit TQ. This should be changed on SISI at some point.

@Wadiest_Yong

There is a large group of highly active, non-afk’ing cloak users, from solo hunters via blops to cloaked fleets and even transports that merits a far more creative, balanced and especially targeted solution and some more dev transpiration.

Those players will still be able to do what they do right now. This won’t have a significant impact on them.

@Wadiest_Yong

Here’s some more irony: we all see botting as a problem, at least the well-meaning ones among us. What about a similar deployable for mining, switching off mining equipment, or its sibling, a deployable that switches off weapons/armor/shield mods. Perhaps the now larger number of people in the collateral damage group would be important enough to reconsider, and deserve a more dev time intensive solution ?

Making mining less passive is something CCP has said publicly they want to do.

@Wadiest_Yong

With the workload being what it is, unless we scream bloody murder and the “project” now off the list of priorities after implementation, that takes years. Most of us do not share that faith.

This is not true anymore, and hasn’t been for a while. I just gave a string of things that were iterated on after they were deployed, either to SISI or to TQ. Not sure why folks refuse to give CCP credit when they do what we’ve been begging them to do.

@Baatin_Chaikai

Short version:
It will not affect the main problem in any case : botting vs cloaky-camping
Completly contrary the pilots now called as “AFK campers” will simply use scripts as well.

No, they won’t. I do not, for the life of me, understand why people keep running immediately to this argument. Botting is against the EULA. Most players won’t engage in it out of principle, others won’t because they are scared of getting banned. The people who are AFK cloaky camping often do it as a response TO bots, so why the hell does ANYBODY think that the obvious thing to do to counter this is become that which they’re supposed to be fighting?

Botting in EVE is tied almost 99.99% to one thing - isk generation. Why? Because it funds RMT.

Nobody is going to make any money with this module. Hence, the desire to bot to get around the limitation is provides is simply not there.

Nobody who wasn’t botting before is going to suddenly start botting because of this deployable. That’s just a farcical claim and I am tired of reading it.

[Ceris_Victoria]

That’s because none of that matters to what they were trying to do - it wasn’t just “prove you’re not AFK” it’s “let’s give defenders a chance to kill AFK cloaked ships.” Which, honestly, given how easy it will be for a non-AFK player to get around these, is what it does.

The problem is it also gives the locals a chance to kill non AFK cloaked ships. Like bridges, bomb trucks, dreads waiting out their jump fatigue timer, nano supers etc.

It also means that when you’re hunting in deep null, you can’t go afk at all. Better have that poopsock ready.

[Renan_Ruivo]

@Orca_Platypus

If response is weaker than you, you get free kills.
If response is stronger than you, you get free leave.
win-win.
Now from defender perspective:
If response is weaker than ganktard, you lose ships.
If response is stronger than ganktard, you lose hours-days-weeks of your time, and get NOTHING.
lose-lose.

Sounds like getting laid in marriage.

[Tima_Shailee]

can somebody explain why all this discussion about bots?
this is a gameplay mechanic change/addition
game mechanics cant distinguish between active player and bot they only see incoming commands
they can however single out ships without incoming commands, aka afk ships

unless ccp implements captcha-s that require minutes to solve, adds spyware to the account or similar thee isnt a mechanical solution
however: humans, players and ccp employees can distinguish between bots

@Brisc_Rubal

Those players will still be able to do what they do right now. This won’t have a significant impact on them.

the issue is that this has any effect on them(active players)at all, one will leave or will get decloaked
implement this in a way that there is way to avoid for active players, its not hard, a single click of no to the question “do you want to get decloaked?” will suffice

[Orca_Platypus]

@Tima_Shailee

eve is open ended playing or leaving it is winning depending on ones outlook

I just pointed out that in any outlook there should be a consistent metric that has an output, where negative number is losing, and positive number is winning.
I presented my metric, pointed out that in current system there’s no way to get anything but deep negative output while doing what he says I should do, and challenged him to either break my logic, or present a consistent alternative where it’s possible to get positive outcome, or simply admit that it’s impossible and shut his trap.
Of course, him completely fitting in a ganktard lower end 2-digit IQ range, he couldn’t rationalize anything out of it. You wanna try to pick up where he failed?

@Tima_Shailee

living in null is hard, being profitable all trhe time is probably even harder

I asked for at least break-even sustainable condition and got no reply for it either.
I agree that current nullsec is not in a sustainable state, but he seems to have a different idea.

@Tima_Shailee

best outcome is u enjoying your playtime

All things I enjoyed are getting removed from the game one after another.
To the point where I’m not even logging in anymore, ships in staging be damned.

@Tima_Shailee

pvp is part of eve

His issue is that I’m not forced to participate in his niche kind of pvp hard enough, and he rejects all other forms of it.
pve is also part of eve, try forcing people to do it, see how many people too stupid to manage it would cry.

@Electric_Dott

The win condition is winning the fight

…which is not happening, because filament chickens.

@Electric_Dott

and driving hostiles from your farming community

…to have them back 30 minutes later, time to go again, no time for farming, you are the 23/7 content, and you are paying for it!
How about no?

@Electric_Dott

I don’t see what’s difficult to understand about that.

You’re having difficulties understanding that being 23/7 content, and always losing, is not what anyone would pay his sub for.
Why don’t you try? If you love fights so much, come out in null and settle as the defender! Be the 23/7 content of your dreams! You don’t want to? whyyyyyyy?

@Electric_Dott

Your bravado is as weak as your logic, that’s why nobody takes you up on your offer. Offering small gangs blobs is going to get you nowhere

Nah, hypocrite, we’d meet you in numbers and doctrine agreed upon, on third party secured insurance if you are afraid of us breaking the rules.
But you won’t. You don’t have a single reason to decline if you want a fight. You’re declining because a fair fight against a responding opponent is your worst nightmare situation. Anything other than free krab kills is simply not on your agenda.

[Orca_Platypus]

@Brisc_Rubal

No, they won’t. I do not, for the life of me, understand why people keep running immediately to this argument. Botting is against the EULA. Most players won’t engage in it out of principle, others won’t because they are scared of getting banned. The people who are AFK cloaky camping often do it as a response TO bots, so why the hell does ANYBODY think that the obvious thing to do to counter this is become that which they’re supposed to be fighting?

Botting in EVE is tied almost 99.99% to one thing - isk generation. Why? Because it funds RMT.

Nobody is going to make any money with this module. Hence, the desire to bot to get around the limitation is provides is simply not there.

Nobody who wasn’t botting before is going to suddenly start botting because of this deployable. That’s just a farcical claim and I am tired of reading it.

Brisc, you’re being too much of a clown with this, so it seems I have to educate you a little about how cloaky camping, botting, and ISK generation, are all tied together.

The most famous cloaky camper in the game, one who’s name I will not specify to not increase his client base, offers his cloaky camper services for ISK. Botters are his usual client. We know for certain that he uses SOME kind of botting software to log in and cloak his toons, because there were a few occasions where it has failed, and dozens of his stealth bomber toons ended up dying that day, because the bot failed to cloak them after a successful login, and they just sat there in space uncloaked, to be found and killed.

That is how we know for certain, that botters are involved, that cloaky camping botting is real, and that he’s doing it for ISK. And it’s not gonna happen in the future, it’s been happening since his first offer of camping services back in 2015.

Obviously, everyone who runs afk cloaky camping on any scale, will do the same thing the protagonist of that story has already done, it will be done for ISK, just like ratting bots, stealing bots, and defending bots in chinese space do. That’s a legitimate claim and you’ll never hear the end of it.

[Tima_Shailee]

@Orca_Platypus

I just pointed out that in any outlook there should be a consistent metric

why sould be? today i win by farming x isk, tomorrow by fleeting with corpmates, next i win by loosing all the ships i bought for pvp, whatever tickles my fancy
compleatly depends on ones mood no consistency needed

@Orca_Platypus

To the point where I’m not even logging in anymore

i wont miss u, i dont even know u, but it is sad

@Orca_Platypus

His issue is that I’m not forced to participate

nobody forces u to do anything, at worst u can log off, play hs u have options
unless somehow u forced to play eve in rl (joking), but that not the games problem

[Yersynia_Pestis]

@Brisc_Rubal

Botting is against the EULA.

Haha, this was a good one.
Of course, botting is against the EULA.
And that fact prevents people (mostly in NullSec) to use this.
If you really belive in that, you can trust me, the chance is the same like my name is Jessica Steinhauser, and you never have watched a video of me.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Brisc_Rubal

That’s because none of that matters to what they were trying to do - it wasn’t just “prove you’re not AFK” it’s “let’s give defenders a chance to kill AFK cloaked ships.” Which, honestly, given how easy it will be for a non-AFK player to get around these, is what it does.

And that is why Mobile Observatories are not digestible. Non-AFK players are collateral damage while AFK mining and other pve’ing get a buff - including bots - and local system defense. It may serve some people to not have to have their supercap umbrellas on standby when the rorquals are out, especially with their new value.

But let’s stop being apologetic for a ccp job that was announced as one thing, but turns out to be anything but what was announced. Cloaky pilots are not of the naive kind… There’s no need to brush concerns off the table, but to collect them and give the proper feedback to Iceland. Paradox already said in ToS that this thing went back and forth between ccp and the csm for at least 5 times. Yes, using the CSM as a codpiece, giving it a semblance of legitimacy. The test happens now, on these and other forums. It’s a sht sandwich, there’s plenty of it, but still a sht sandwich. And I assume you know it.

[Meeko_Gloom]

CCP you can’t make it anchorable under the guns of structures. At least 500km.

Or possibly make the range of the observatory 14.3 AUs?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Orca_Platypus

The most famous cloaky camper in the game, one who’s name I will not specify to not increase his client base, offers his cloaky camper services for ISK. Botters are his usual client. We know for certain that he uses SOME kind of botting software to log in and cloak his toons, because there were a few occasions where it has failed, and dozens of his stealth bomber toons ended up dying that day, because the bot failed to cloak them after a successful login, and they just sat there in space uncloaked, to be found and killed.

That is how we know for certain, that botters are involved, that cloaky camping botting is real, and that he’s doing it for ISK. And it’s not gonna happen in the future, it’s been happening since his first offer of camping services back in 2015.

Obviously, everyone who runs afk cloaky camping on any scale, will do the same thing the protagonist of that story has already done, it will be done for ISK, just like ratting bots, stealing bots, and defending bots in chinese space do. That’s a legitimate claim and you’ll never hear the end of it.

If everybody knows who this guy is, why hasn’t he been banned?

Second, I know an entire group that runs AFK cloaky camping on a significant scale, and they don’t do it for isk.

@Orca_Platypus

Botters are his usual client.

Why would botters pay this guy to cloaky camp?

@Yersynia_Pestis

Haha, this was a good one.
Of course, botting is against the EULA.
And that fact prevents people (mostly in NullSec) to use this.
If you really belive in that, you can trust me, the chance is the same like my name is Jessica Steinhauser, and you never have watched a video of me.

Most people don’t bot.

@Wadiest_Yong

Non-AFK players are collateral damage

/sigh

No, they aren’t. This thing is easily avoidable by folks who are sitting at their keyboard and paying attention.

@Wadiest_Yong

But let’s stop being apologetic for a ccp job that was announced as one thing, but turns out to be anything but what was announced.

It was announced as a solution to AFK cloaky camping. It is a solution to AFK cloaky camping.

@Meeko_Gloom

CCP you can’t make it anchorable under the guns of structures. At least 500km.

I agree that this shouldn’t be deployable on structures.

[Tima_Shailee]

@Brisc_Rubal

This thing is easily avoidable by folks who are sitting at their keyboard and paying attention.

floks have the option of leaving the system as anything other than that will result in being decloaked once somebody drops one of these, thats not “avoidable”
also: 1 pulse is enogh to decloak afk cloaked ships no need for more, any more only affects active ones since afkers wont recloak

[Senyu_Takashi]

Reading through all your posts I have several points/questions I’d like to rise:

1. First of all, if you are a “too small alliance to actively face the usual opposition” why are you in 0.0 in the first place? If you are too small to actively defend yourself, then you have no business being in that place at all.

2. You lay down three possibilities on how an interaction with a cloaky camper will end while completely missing out a fourth one:
   Just do PvE as normal, wait for the enemy to engage (so they can no longer chicken out) and then fight them. And again, if your argument here is that you do not have enough numbers to put up a fight or do not have enough pilots to actively watch over your space at all times, refer to my point no.1.

3. You claim that you waste your time forming in advance to see if the enemy engages, however you are completely missing out the fact that the enemy also wastes their time by forming and waiting, in case their scout manages to find a prey. This also brings me to the next point…

4. PvP in EVE is non-consentual. If I want to waste my time to order for you to waste your time, then not only should I be allowed to do so, but there should be (and are) tools for me to force you to waste your time. And again, if you do not like when other players force you into a situation, do not stay in 0.0

5. No, the win condition for you is not “win all objectives or you lose”. Your win condition is to inflict larger losses on the attacker than they inflict on you in order to whittle them down and deplete their ability to conduct similar raids into your space. And again, if you are unable to muster enough forces as a reaction, refer to point no.1

6. No, your defense obligation is not timers only. Your defense obligation is to actively defend your space at all times. You have the option recruit people from multiple timezones which very easily solves your “we all have RL” argument. And again, if you cannot do that or refuse to do that, refer to my point no.1

7. There is no “just PvE” as well as there is no “just PvP”. There is only EVE. You are expected to defend yourself against enemy player interaction while doing PvE, being it trolls in highsec missions, low sec pirates attempting to murder you in relic/data sites or gankers attempting to drop on your ratting ships. Just as the PvPer has to deal unexpected NPC interaction, such as highsec police/concord attempting to interfere with their actions, DED space/anomaly NPCs suddenly deciding to switch targets, or that one effin’ drifter fleet that lands on you while you are killing a ratter in Pochven and doomsdaying your arse “for the lulz”. If you cannot be bothered to anticipate that, refer to my point no.1

[Orca_Platypus]

@Brisc_Rubal

If everybody knows who this guy is, why hasn’t he been banned?

Why are you asking me a question that has been asked to CCP by every victim of his so far?

@Brisc_Rubal

Second, I know an entire group that runs AFK cloaky camping on a significant scale, and they don’t do it for isk.

And this is what’s going to happen: all those hobbyist would stop doing it, and all those who need their services would go to professionals who do it for ISK, and they do it like the guy who’s name we won’t mention.

@Brisc_Rubal

Why would botters pay this guy to cloaky camp?

Competition. Eve has more than one botter, Brisc, muster an ounce of gray matter please.

@Brisc_Rubal

No, they aren’t. This thing is easily avoidable by folks who are sitting at their keyboard and paying attention.

And, to a much greater extent, bots, with perfect reaction time. Oh, we’re going to see a lot more of those…
I’m not saying we shouldn’t get a whack at cloaky camping, of course, it’s stupid and it needs to go. I’m just saying that this whack is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

[Algathas]

@Orca_Platypus

timer fight

This game is moving to all fights being pre arranged trash. Either bs arenas, timers, etc. Boooring. Any non staged pvp is getting heavily nerfed.