Mobile Observatories – Live on Singularity

To branch off slightly from my reply regarding metrics and delve a bit into the point of view of a cloaker,

What to me is the targeted problem:
Mass deployment of cheap ships by a single player or group in order to disrupt and suppress activity in an entire region.

What to me constitutes undesirable effect:
Lower than estimated impact on low-investment mass cloaky camping. “Active” hunters being pushed into using the above strategy and options being removed from the gameplay style.

There is a very binary approach to what constitutes an AFK Cloaker in this change. How I see this definition in the current mehanic:

“Anyone who departs the keyboard for longer than 20 minutes is an AFK cloaker”

Reasoning: Around 20 minutes is enough for your enemy to anchor and get a pulse out. Because a lot in EVE is about balancing costs and risk management, at this point you essentially die on a coin toss.

This would actually be a fine assumption as an isolated change - this idea however exists in the ecosystem of New Eden.

In this ecosystem, players who use covert cloaks exists within a certain niche - they belong to the skirmish and harassment group and partial overlap between the cloaky camper and roaming gang exists.

As an example, if the gang and the cloaky camper are in contact with each other, a cloaked player can provide initial tackle or warp-in as they already are in system. This is rare, but I’ve done it more than occasionally.

The roaming gang moves faster and has a wider engagement profile - their logistics ships allow them to pick a fight with another gang and their tacklers, often interceptors, can be on the target quicker. They are also immediately visible in local and their fleet composition is easy to report, allowing a defense fleet to form and ratters to dock up in neighboring systems.

The cloaky camper excels at eliminating cautious high value targets that rely on local to avoid roaming gangs. On their own their engagement profile is slim and covert ops fleet compositions cannot hold their ground against a comparably sized, balanced gang - spare for very rare and expensive compositions which require prep time to set up.

The set up time mentioned is quite important as this kind of gameplay is more often than not reactive - the camper and their fleet need to adjust to their target’s time and be ready, and it’s easier to gather a few bombers than a complex doctrine.

There exists a core problem in the perception of the covert cloak however, as the only thing it can conceal is your current state (active/inactive) and position. ZKillboard provides insight to your intent, ship and possibly fitting and local indicates your movement.

This, of course, applies to all ships that are out hunting - however, an interceptor or other tackler ship hold the advantage of moving faster, while the chief advantage of a cloaking ship comes into play once they linger in a state of potential inactivity for a prolonged period of time.

To reiterate:

  • In order to take the full advantage of your cloaking device, you need to remain in the system concealed for a prolonged period of time and bait your target’s confidence.

If we force a “status check” mechanic into play, and that advantage is lost - building our assumption around rewarding cloaked players that move around, switch systems and actively hunt, there is little point in using a cloaky ship in general.

Another point here is that EVE is a game of risk management - you always balance your risk for the target you wish to accomplish. Your risk is how much you put in your ship - and each gameplay style has a measure to mitigate that risk and achieve success.

A skirmish oriented ship has high speed and bonuses that can help it control a small amount of opponents and disengage if needed. Damage application/Range bonuses, tackle bonuses (Orthrus) are an example.

The cloaker mitigates with the ultimate ability of picking their engagements. Once they commit, they become very vulnerable to a response that is ready for them. This is not some ideal case - I’ve seen that happen and worked around it in the past.

Once we push the risk boundary and introduce a deterrent like an obsevatory, the player will take steps to mitigate it and accomplish their goal. That goal is not to stay cloaked up in system in a ship of his choosing - it’s to use a cloaky ship to catch people that would normally not undock with a hostile in local and blow them up.

To do that, he needs to preserve his advantage of having an hard to determine state. The only way forward for him is to ensure his ability to increase survival with a potential observatory present. He also needs to accept losses due to not being at the keyboard (stakeouts can, by default, be very boring and last a long time) for the magical period defined as “AFK”.

The choice is either to switch to a different style of play (this is the point where a fair amount of hunters I know get legit angry and consider quitting. I mean, we play to sneak around, right - and there’s a niche there.) or… well, downship, cut your engagement profile even further, risk less and basically do what certain players that had a lot of characters in bombers did - properly “AFK Cloak” waiting for the jackpot target.

To summarize my biggest points:

  • Because in-game (local) and external (zkill) intel tools nullify all others, the remaining advantage of cloaks is that you can, by remaining in an area for a prolonged period of time, conceal your level of activity to bait out a target

  • Introduction of a deterrent mechanic forces either decreasing the cost of your operation and trimming the engagement profile or switching away from this gameplay style entirely.

(As a bonus, it pushes Recons further into a niche of being brick tanked fleet cynos)

Of course, to keep it in mind - this is only addressing the consequences for us, a cloaked guys. I will not go in depth on what I would consider the economic impact here, but something tells me that big groups that can pull a lot more than 40m/hour out of a system will enjoy observatories greatly…

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In the shape of a Pod would be very timely.

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I feel a new meme being born.

You want your cloakies hard boiled or soft boiled ? :rofl:

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Eggs and soldiers
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image

In fairness, like nerf cloaking, nerf local is a very old topic

Personally I think that conversation does belong here because of the link between cloaky camping and passive gameplay caused by intel from local. CCP really shouldn’t have been “fixing” one and not the other.

I’m sure we all know the short version. Farmers safe up the second a hostile is in local. Roamers can’t do anything meaningful in response so either stick a cloaked character in system as a punishment for passive gameplay or in the hopes that the locals will acclimatise and might enable a kill some hours later. But while locals are responding to local as their primary intel source, which is overwhelmingly the case, a cloak for short-term hunting is not much better than useless.

Yes this deployable will tackle AFK cloaky camping but as somebody who has used cloakies for intel/tackle a lot (and I realise I’m not the only person with experience there) I suspect this change will have a far greater impact than just that and the traditional sci-fi role of a cloaky will be lost. I just don’t see the surprise element of decloaking anymore if you’re in local and known to be active, you might as well wave. I just wouldn’t bother personally, if you need to check in every 15 mins and any counter play to the structure gives away your intentions - what’s the point?

If, and I’m not confident they do, CCP want to keep null sec a cat and mouse game between hunter and farmer something has to be done to balance this structure out and maintain the role of covert-ops ships. I don’t see how that doesn’t involve a nerf to local. If you want to maintain cloaking being useful for hunting but to make it only for a short window of time it has to be accompanied by invisibility from local

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you can still be cloaked in a system for a long period of time. just need to be at KB now or you gonna die.

the only consequence for you “cloaked guys” is that now you can’t disrupt or diminish an entire region gameplay without even being at home."

also all against observatory mechanic are claiming that you WILL be decloaked witch is wrong, there is a 60% chance I your favor for each observatory burst. and even if you lose the maths I doubt someone can probe you while you just warp to a safe and cloak up before landing . not a challenge for ppl who is used to hunt a lot heh?

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I don’t think you comprehended what they and myself have been saying. Sure they “need to be at the KB” but because of that you also will know for sure that they are at the KB now. This piece of intel in of itself was the only remaining uncertainty because of local. Now you know for sure they are there and you know for sure they are active, so there is absolutely no stealth.

No, the consequence is that you can’t hunt at all whatsoever as a cloaky. The only hunting left is hopefully catching someone slow enough with a speedy tackle before they warp when you appear in local. The stealth approach, at the keyboard or not will be pretty much removed from the game.

Again, this doesn’t matter because stealth play is about being patient and sneaking up on your target. The gameplay is to reveal yourself at the proper moment. You aren’t going to guarantee either being killed or the target running away on the off chance you are decloaked on grid when you don’t want to be. Remember that it is not only the hunter. The hunter being decloaked prematurely not only wastes their time/isk, but the whole fleet behind them (if they have one).

You only are thinking of cloakers as people just sitting there in system and sure, if they are just doing that then they could warp to a safe. But what you are not thinking of is how hunting actively actually works.

they did before. and it was a total disaster. a river of tears from hunters and farmers too. ah y say we delay local… it will have same effect as blackout really. cause that few seconds you have to warp a ratting ship witch does not align in less than 10-15 seconds is enough to any tackle to land on you.

This.

As long as you’re barely active but still near your keyboard you can still be logged in and a threat in local for hours and hours while watching netflix.

The only thing that changed is that if you leave your ship logged in while asleep or at work, you now have a chance to be decloaked, probed down and killed.

But even that is no certainty as it requires the locals to put down a structure that isn’t cheap, is based on chance and even then may require a very expensive pod to probe your ship down provided you use a fit for that purpose.

If you just want to sit in local for hours, go ahead, that’s still possible!

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You can spout some narrative about everyone not liking it and it was a disaster, but I know many people (myself included) that liked it, and several that resubbed when local was removed, whom then unsubbed again when they brought it back.

The problem is that they only do one side or the other. If they want active gameplay, then they need to both nerf local at the same time as providing things like the observatory. If when they removed local they gave the krabs something there would be less whining, (then again maybe not because krabs only want 100% safety but at least they could point to it as the new way to keep safe). If when they buff the krabs with crap like the observatory they nerf local, then there would be less issue from the hunter side.

A nerf to local can be many things, delayed, cloakies not showing in local while cloaked, change to region or constellation chat, etc. It doesn’t have to mean the total removal of local.

Again, what changed is not only that you have to be active, it is that now the enemy knows for sure you are active. That is a huge change and combined with keeping local how it is, nullifies cloaky hunting.

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" … because null was empty as f… and no one at all was ratting except huge blocks with cap umbrellas you don’t have balls to face "

corrected that for

Sure, at first because of the shock factor, but then eventually people adjust and come out again. The krabs scurry to highsec for a time but their greed for the higher isk/hr overcomes and they come back. But like I said, they could have given the krabs something to actively gain some insight or changed local to constellation chat (so you know someone is close but not necessarily exactly what system) and it probably wouldn’t have been as bad.

you are making assumptions against a crude fact. . you can’t tell if the “krabs” would go back to null with such a " constellation chat" that would only make Afk cloaking cheaper as now they need 1 ship per const. and no that would not be better risk/reward than running abyss or whatever in HS in total safe.

Lol… if there is one cloaky in the whole constellation then the odds of it being in any particular system are low. Thus, if a ratter really is that risk averse to where they can’t function at all with a single red in the whole constellation then do they really belong in nullsec?

As for risk/reward, why do you think CCP has been lowering rewards? One thing I notice is that they have been constantly nerfing various PVP aspects. Then as it is harder for PVPers to catch targets, wardec, bait, etc then destruction goes down, farming and ISK goes up. Then CCP nerfs income or adds overpowered npcs to do the job that PVPers once did.

Since a straight up change to local didn’t work before, CCP still wanted to crank down overall isk in null, so they turned to crap like the forced ESS, changing bounties, changing belts, etc. If PLAYERS were allowed to cause destruction then they wouldn’t need to do that! But now since the krabs whined they are getting what they wanted more safety at the cost of lower rewards.

I have a feeling that you didn’t actually read the post you’re quoting as you simply cherry pick quotes out of context.

That said, I’ll indulge you on the odds of remaining cloaked:

An observatory has a running time of 1h40 min, or 100 minutes. Pulsing each 10 minutes, it will emit 10 pulses over the course of its lifetime.

The odds that the first pulse does not decloak you is 3/5 (60%), that neither the first nor the second ((3/5)**2) and so on, up until we reach (3/5)**10 - the probability that none of the 10 pulses decloaks you tallies up to around ~0.6%.

Alternatively, an observatory running its course in the system has 99.39% chance of decloaking each target.

The odds you remain cloaked after each pulse:
1: 60%
2: 36%
3: 21%
4: 13%
5: 7%
6: 4%
7: 3%
8: 1.6%
9: 1%
10: 0.6%

It’s not really a matter of if you lose the roll, it’s a matter of when in the period of that you will lose it.

wow what a great deal to warp to a safe and cloak again every ( insert maths here) . really you all burned because now ratters ( or even pvpers) now have a counter to you and your won’t be able to disrupt a group gameplay in total safe.

you missing the point that the red can be in ANY system and ratter can’t know if he is in HIS OWN SYSTEM. that’s almost same as blackout.

they are. problem is most of them want to hunt risk safe. and speaking about ess I was against that once now it’s bringing some fun to our turf we even hunt some bots ess. not our fault if the mighty vet hunters don’t want to fight and just try easy targets and filament out when we form to face them.

This, so very much this -

Removing local is a web to untangle because it touches on so many fields beyond just the simple “ratter vs. roaming gang” dynamic. It will need some substitute since the dynamics of 0.0 are much different than those of wormholes.

But, smashing the balance either way and expecting good results will inevitably result in outrage, tears and folks unsubbing. Depending on the blast radius of the change this will either be forgettably small, or cause a massive outrage (see - Blackout)…

Your missing the point that the hostile also doesn’t know exactly where the krab is either. With localb as-is the hostile knows exactly who is there. Constellation chat would mean that the hostile has to also figure out what system the krab is actually in. This works both ways working to see fleet movements as well since you wouldn’t just know a fleet is there by a “local spike” you would have to actually watch systems. While you may not know where the attacking fleet is the attackers wouldn’t know where your defense fleet is either. Especially since you have jump bridges you could use this to your advantage.

yes so.
when I talk about cloak fuel in null, that’s unthinkable… and I get called out for being un-emphatic, “ignoring everyone else for my own needs” and I’m this and that, and i want EVERYONE TO SUFFER, so i can “krab in peace” bla bla bla…

and here you are just a moment later talking the serious talk of removing local from the game and how to do that best … etc etc

and might i add: go talk about removing local in another topic.

yup, thanks for doing the math on this…
but tbh, all this means is a cloaky camper just needs to make a decision:
“do I go for pizza and straight back… for the recloak boogaloo and netflix…” OR
“should i not risk lose a 35m cloaky eyes… with +4 training implants x2 for pizza… hmm”

Yes, thanks ccp, I see that you’re sticking to your roadmap of vibrant gameplay that forces players to make the tough decisions that matters.