Monthly Economic Report - August 2018


(Balos Tritapo) #21

you really believe that do you? :slight_smile:

(Mingja) #22

I actually have first hand experience in the fight against automation. It’s mostly heuristics if you go above the dumb botters that let their bots run for unhuman-like amounts of time, which seem to be the majority in eve tbh.

Because there is only so much more manpower can do. It’s not as simple as to say “Put all CCP staff on botting and it will be gone next week”. A lot of the effort against bots are heuristic methods and those do leave a lot of room for false positives and do ask for a ton of individual time.

In addition, new bots can be created easily (in some cases automated or semi-automated), so it’s not like you purge all of them once and they stay away.

No, it’s not.

ALL of Nullsec has these options. A big part of nullsec had the options before goons began with it. What drove their economic success is the fact that they embrace the Industrial side of Eve and actually encourage their members to make dank isks, which is something no other Alliance has done yet.

Goonrorquals don’t even dock up if you appear with less than 20 ships or a covert cyno and that is not done by CCP design, it’s all player effort. Stripping an Entire Region worth of belts isn’t a CCP design either.

Yes, you can say CCP doesn’t do -enough-. That may or may not be true. Saying they are complicit is a dumb claim though when they ban botters by the thousands. It’s a simple conspiracy theory.

Sure, one of the driving factors of botting is RMT, and I would agree that CCP doesn’t do enough against RMT either (mainly because I don’t know if they make legal efforts or if that is even possible by law for them), but even without RMT, you would still have people botting.

Yes, and why is there very little reason? Because Goons simply offer it all. You can do what you want (quite literally, except messing with your buddies) and no random butt hole will tell you to go on this fleet because his ego needs more numbers docked up for a fight that never happens.

I could go on and on from experience with various nullsec alliances (which, as an example, might put a fine on you for not attending Stratops) or which don’t have a Supercap umbrella to save your butt when it’s needed etc. Doesn’t suprise me one bit that everyone wants to join the greenest pastures eve has ever seen.

But yeah, sure, that’s what CCP intended all along and it’s only done by bots. If you want to believe that, go ahead.

(Rivr Luzade) #23

If there is manpower at all. CCP’s security team is severely understaffed for the number of characters EVE has.

Funnily enough CFC do that as well and CFC are more often than not the reason why fights don’t happen. All following the motto “ruin their game and then complain loudly how boring EVE is”. :wink:

And in CFC you got doomsdayed if you cherrypicked belts. And I have been encouraged in every alliance I have ever been in to make as much ISK as possible so that I can participate in fleets and have fun. In those regards, CFC is not different from any other group. The difference comes from the massive advantages that massive numbers of supers and titans offer, which was deliberately enabled by contemporary CCP without any thought on the consequences.

In the past, supers and titans were supposed to be an alliance effort. Now they are throwaway chinese plastic toys that you have in your hangars by the dozens. It’s not conspiracy, it’s simply the reality that CCP deliberately forgot to balance super and titan production with the introduction of safe structures. CCP needs these titans and supers for their deceptive marketing, that’s the only reason why they ignored the problems.

Just saying:

(Mingja) #24

I find a comment like this a stretch without knowing the numbers of actual botters. Especially without any idea on what kinds of bots are killed (dumb ones vs clever ones).

Which is a good thing. Cherrypickers serve noone but their own.

Well, I have been encouraged to join stratops by “force” (either go offline or attempt this fleet) more times than I can count. I’ve only ever been “allowed to make ISK” and never encouraged. :slight_smile:

Just that the north has equal ammounts of SuperCaps than Imperial Legacy has. All that without an economic powerhouse and with clearly inferior industrial numbers in the last 9 months (since I’ve been back and monitoring it).

Sure, it was only enabled through rorguals and only and explicitly for goons. :slight_smile: Conspiracy confirmed. Lousy argument.

CCP had mass battles with Titans before the rorqual changes. Get your facts straight please. Bloodbath of B-R5RB ringing a bell? Even the latest 10 trillion Isk battle couldn’t outmatch this.

Yes, CCP capitalizes on these big number battles, because why not? What does this have to do with GSF’s success, when literally EVERY Coalition in the game could do the same if they wanted to?

(Rivr Luzade) #25

That is demonstrably false:

157 votes and 196 comments so far on Reddit

My facts are straight. B-R was an anomaly. These days these kind of tidi lag fests happen every other week. Not to mention that the server performance is degrading back to 2005 levels as it can’t even sustain 1500 chars fighting. The facts are that CCP does not care about the performance, they only care about “Yay, another huge battle that no one enjoyed for the Guiness Book.”

(Mingja) #26

558 and 1404 vs 533 and 1128

Okey, they have a lot more supers. Titans? not so much.

They have happend 3 times in the last 3 months during the biggest war Eve has ever seen. You can’t possibly think that this is every day stuff, or do you?

Yes, you could argue that it’s possible to replace losses faster, that would be fair, but all alliances have the same option, so it’s hardly an argument against CFC or for CCP protecting them.

I know nothing about 2005 fights, but I doubt there was any battle with 1500 people back in those days. I do remember unplayable states with just 300 people back in 2011 (Grid loading… whoops, you are dead).

A reinforced node can handle like what, about 5k players these days. Sure, unreinforced ones will probably have Tidi at 1500 and they might even collapse, but that’s still better than what we had 5 years ago (B-R was like 2.6, so we almost doubled!). So, why exactly do you feel the hyperbole is needed?

(Rivr Luzade) #27

Care to explain how you got to 533 titans for the north? Last I checked it was only GOTG and Panfam, which in total only have 420 titans according to these months old numbers. Holy, Winter, Trumpy are not part of the north.

And even if they had equal numbers: The numbers themselves are disgusting and completely contrary to what they should be according to initial design purposes for these ships. They turned from an achievement of a group to a worthless toy for a single user.

Not sure what you are talking about but I have experienced unsustainable, atrocious tidi lag fests 2 times in the last week alone (Ihub timers).
I don’t care about that it is easier to replace things faster. The problem is simply that these massive tidi lag fests are necessary at all, and that CCP forces users to participate in them.

A reinforced node cannot sustain 5k chars. At all. It already starts to buckle at 3k if you are lucky. Or do you really call the experience “handle it”?
What is hyperbolic about the statement? CCP boasts about the huge fights without doing nearly enough to sustain them in a playable fashion. In contrast, they do the opposite and give more ships drones, for instance, which are demonstrably bad for the performance. CCP also falsely portraits these tidi lag fests as enjoyable and fluid experience, and downplays any issue with the server.

(Mingja) #28

They were during the battles (I left out winter).

Well, I would agree on that. The crucial thing is though: THe north had most of it before the rorqual changes. So, what your argument might be is: “Instead of decreasing the ammount of supers, CCP opened the option to produce them faster”.

Just that GSF capitalized a lot more on it then the others. Because that is what happened, nothing more, nothing less.

1.) CCP doesn’t force you to do them
2.) Tidi is still better than the alternative (which is unplayable states at 500 people)

I get that you don’t like Tidi. As someone that did fleet stuff back in 2010/2011, I have to say: I do not want to have those days back. It got a lot better and you can hardly blame CCP for players trying to bring as many ships as possible.

What you seem to not understand is: ANY Headroom given by CCP will only lead to more players, cause the playercount in those alliances was allways bigger than what the servers allowed. So no, it’s not a CCP fault at all, cause they upped their game considerably over the years. It’s all players and there is no other viable solution to it.

If you would remove Titans and Supers, you would have even more players in subcapitals.

5k players fighting = handling it. I don’t really like Tidi, but it’s a necessary evil. If you would remove it, you would have more severe lags at a fraction of that number.

The hyperbole is that you really think it’s worse than 2005, when it clearly isn’t (not at all). Ofcourse, if you are naiv enough to think that Tidi is bad, there is no help for you because you haven’t experienced bad lagfests.

The reality is: Eve is a N+ game and the advantages you can gain by bringing more players will result in more players there if possible. Even at the recent battles, so many players were left out because the server couldn’t (realistically) handle much more. They know good enough how much they can bring and they will go as close to that number as possible.

(Rivr Luzade) #29

I did not say worse than 2005. I say it is going back to these levels. Tidi alone is not the problem and I also do not argue for its removal. The fact that tidi alone is not enough anymore to prevent discos, unresponsive clients and other nice experiences even in 1500 people fights shows that. Cool, we get more people in a system … to experience the same bad performance. That is great progress. The servers are getting so bad, in fact, that you cannot even jump through a wormhole these days without getting disconnected in a noticeable number of cases.
And then there are instances where the server handles the same number of characters just fine, and both instances were on an unreinforced node.

That is correct. And CCP knows that. Yet they deliberately introduced even worse N+1 mechanics with structures, Keepstars in particular, without any regard for these issues. That is my entire problem.

If you do not show up, you lose everything you worked for just because a bigger group shows up. To me, this is forcing people to do certain things and in ever more escalating numbers.

Big fights are fine, if they work. But CCP approached the entire thing like the EU approached the introduction of the euro: Huge structures requiring huge fleets first, without any infrastructure and necessary code optimization in place to handle them. That’s what frustrates me about this whole thing. If big battles would look even 10% like in the trailers, it would be an amazing experience, but they do not and cannot because CCP forgot to have the necessary infrastructure for them first.

(Mingja) #30

Oh well, it’s still a hyperbole tbh, but enough of that, it’s not really important.

Yes and that classifies as an improved result. More people = more power.

I’ve never had that happen to me tbh. I’ve had like one disconnect outside of Huuuge server issues (like the “New Chat server” debacle) in the last 9 months that were not related to my modem terminating everything or me switching connection (VPN derp is strong with me).

Would you prefer to have PoS’s back?

So, the problem is that they allow more people to participate? Cause:

the infrastructure just doesn’t exist to handle a crowd that will exploit every last drop of it.

I mean, I get the argument that CCP promotes big battles and you consider this a bad thing because it’s too bad of an experience. I would say it’s a good thing to have these big numbers, despite Tidi because the flipside is no big battles at all.

You can have a good experience, you just need lower numbers (like the recent brawl in Providence).

In the end, it has very little to do with GSF too, cause these Tidi shitfests happen even without goons (the Triumvirate Keepstar back in April (I believe) as an example or the slaughtering of XiX…

So yeah, I get that you are disappointed about having slow fights under Tidi and that you wish that CCP wouldn’t promote Big numbers so you have to experience less of that.

That has little to do with Supercaps though, as you could bet on the fact that that you would most likely have bigger numbers in Subcaps if supers weren’t a thing. So, in the end, my oppinion is: it wouldn’t even matter one bit.

On top of that, I rather have big Tidi fests than a state of the game where only one side has massive capital superiority and uses it to bully others around into submission or out of nullsec (that is what PL has done in the past and tried with Provi first, then test later - the fight initiated the war).

(Teckos Pech) #31


Oh yes…it is just one big coalition.

How many pilots live in Delve relative to the other regions? 40,000? How many live in Vale of the Silent or Tribute? One reason there is massive economic output in Delve has to do with sheer numbers. Take the ratting ISK for August, it works out to about 175 million/pilot in the Imperium. Yes, yes, I know not all of them are out there ratting, but my point is that there are a-■■■■■■■-lot more people ratting in Delve than are ratting in any other region. Same goes for mining.

And there is nothing stopping other groups from using their space like this. CCP has placed all this potential in NS it is up to the players to exploit it. What I hear in these threads each month is basically, “Oh no, Goons are doing it better than anyone else, CCP must step in and do something.”

Again, this option is there for any group that wants to take advantage of it. The difference is that Goons have set up an infrastructure and culture that promotes utilizing their space to the greatest extent possible. Setting aside the number of plots/players issue. Suppose Goons are using their space to such an extent that it is “unbalanced”. What is CCP to do? Nerf Delve? Well Goons will just move. So Nerf that new Goon home? They’ll move again. And again and again and again. Until all of NS is nerfed and Goons are, relatively speaking, back at the the top of the MERs. So should CCP “nerf goons”. Make it harder for Goons to exploit their culture and infrastructure? Yeah, that sure seems fair.

They still are an alliance effort. Look at the MERs. Why are Goons at the top…they have mobilized their alliance and coalition to be able to build that many super caps.

What I find interesting about this is the complete ignoring of history here…

Sure, now the Imperium has the advantage. But why is that? Because aside for B-R PL/NC had the upper hand in terms of super caps. Even during the Casino War Goons were careful not to get caught out by the PL/NC/et. al. who were itching for revenge after B-R…because they still had the numbers advantage. So after relocating the Delve Goons decided to change that. Not by destroying PL/NC titans, but by out building them.

So what is the problem here? You don’t like the outcome of this arms race? Hmmm…well. What exactly do you propose as the solution? Were you complaining about this when PL/NC had that edge? Or was it not a problem then? If so, why not?

(Rivr Luzade) #32

Pretty much. This obscene increase in supers and titans is ridiculous. I have been against supers and titans since the first time they massively helped kicking me out of an area of space that I liked to live in. My sentiment has not changed since.

(Teckos Pech) #33

BTW, just out of curiosity how much do you think PL and NC. are pulling in, in terms of ISK form their rental empire? I mean a fair and balanced comparison would be to compare their ISK stream to that of Goons. Yet I don’t see you doing Jack ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ to do such a comparison. You just bitch and whine alot. Maybe you should actually try to be a bit more intellectually honest and give us some numbers from these slum lords who manage a rental empire. I’m guessing that they pull in say at least 5 trillion ISK in terms of rental payments and PL/NC. pull in at least another 7 trillion in terms of ratting and mining. Care to comment or are you just going to whine about Goons?

(Rivr Luzade) #34

Interesting numbers. Tenal, Vale and Tribute have a bounty income of 5T and a mining yield of 1,8T. Most of that space is rented out and some is used by NCPL themselves, which means only a portion of that overall income directly translates into renting income. That’s obviously just deducing from the MER numbers as I do not have access to rental figures. Even if those were 1:1 rental income numbers, you’d have to be generous to meet your fantasies.

(Nevyn Auscent) #35

You are neglecting all the other income that doesn’t appear on the Mer.
Trade. Loot. Manufacturing

(Rivr Luzade) #36

He only asked for ratting and mining. (Manufacturing appears on the MER, and in Tribute, Vale and Tenal it is 10T, though. Way less than Delve anyway.) I also don’t see that I have complained about trade in Delve.

(Nevyn Auscent) #37

The point is you are claiming renting income can’t be that much purely off ratting isk.
Where as anyone collecting renting income is going to be basing it off the regions entire income potential.

(Rivr Luzade) #38

I don’t claim, I’m guessing.

But let’s do some actual numbers, as I think I just found the rental spreadsheet with the system prices:

According to that, theoretically if all systems were rented out, Tribute brings in 174B month, Tenal 219B and Vale 432.5B, which totals to a theoretical 825.5B renting income. I don’t know if these renting fee numbers are outdated, but I cannot imagine that NCPL raised their fees by 300% so that they could meet Teckos’ fantasy numbers. :thinking:

Overall: Teckos is just whining that someone mentions the ridiculous state of the cluster. :man_shrugging:

(Nevyn Auscent) #39

Actual numbers are good. And much more useful :slight_smile:
I’m in agreement the state of the cluster is ridiculous, but any solution basically destroys nullsec as we know it at this stage in the game.

(Teckos Pech) #40

My point is that the MERs hide information. Not on purpose or deliberately, that is just a fact when you aggregate data. Aggregation hides information. How many people were ratting in each region? Ratting bounties and ratting hours sure could go along ways towards illuminating the situation.