Moon mining, notifications, beacons and times

[Ryan_B_Thiesant]

@MinerArt

Claiming to be shy then instantly throwing out an insult is a contradiction.

Claiming and actually being. How would you know? This could be a script I have rigged to keep this post open.

Being shy could be an indication of many problems. Do you have time to talk about my feelings?

Ryan

[Ryan_B_Thiesant]

@Lugh_Crow-Slave

of those 25 i owned 15

so yes i am well aware of how it works and how easy it is to get organized

Thanks. I like spread sheets. I did a lot of pivot tables, tables, cross tabs and weird joins in my job.

But what one thing do you think could be improve in refining? Do you have a feature request in mining?

Ryan

[Lugh_Crow-Slave]

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

But what one thing do you think could be improve in refining? Do you have a feature request in mining?

only thing that could have been improved is if EVERYONE went suspect in HS ore fields. add some risk to that null ore.

and hey it would work for what you want too. a bunch of suspects in system and barges on scan? moons up

[Lily_Inkura]

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

I am interested to know if you are a miner or refinery owner

I am a solo miner who owns three refineries; one currently in mothballs, one mining, one running reactions.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

What is your workaround for finding moon ming sites?

As previously outlined:

1. I have bookmarks for LS systems that I flew around noting, a) if they had refineries, b) if these refineries were mining, c) what they were mining, d) whether mining was in systems with public structures I could hide in, e) whether systems had NPC rats I could kill / tank.
2. Using #1, I also have bookmarks for many 0.5 refineries. I found these by, a) visiting every public refinery on overview, b) flying to asteroid belts outside DScan range (14.4 AU) and looking for non-public refineries, c) flying to every moon beacon and logging what was there, d) using combat drones to find every refinery not on overview.
3. For finding refineries with active belts I still, a) fly around my bookmarks and see, b) judge by km distance to asteroid as to when fracture is due (accurate to within 12-24 hours), c) keep internet bookmarks of those who published mining schedules.

I now almost exclusively rely on, a) using published schedules in HS, b) touring R64 moons in LS, c) occasionally using my own moons.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

So you agree visibility is to be controlled by the refinery owner.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

I think it should show these so that people can mine the minerals

No, I do not agree. In HS, all moon belts are public. It is the refinery and the moon drilling ops that are private. Any advertising of activity should be controlled by the owner. After that, visibility is already open to all. Everyone can see where minerals are available to mine … if, you or any other individual go looking.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

I think it would be better be able to charge for the minerals, to create revenue for refinery own via a tax. What do you thinks about that?

My observation is refinery owners would love to be able to charge for minerals - either as direct revenue model or to at least indirectly reduce their losses from unwanted third party mining. There is nothing stopping owners from already doing this now.

The only way for your system to work would be for CCP to make a mandatory tax, raised on the owners’ behalf. And that would be a tax rate based on what? A % of the CCP ore price?; the Jita price?; the Jita price if compressed; the Jita sell or buy price? And who sets that tax rate … owner or CCP?

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

I have seen that in bio people are asking for a friendly kick back forming the ore. Wouldn’t this suggest that there is a wider need than my own? this is in response to…“this is your problem” is not actually limited to me.

Kick backs are already given to orca pilots who provide boosts in regular ice belts. This is voluntary and I do not do it - on the basis that the orca pilot has to boost their fleet anyway and adding me comes at no extra cost. Running a moon drill does however have a fuel cost. In LS I do pay kick backs although this is largely to stop people shooting me, not because I am being nice. [Actually, this is LS. If they caught me in space they would still shoot me. However, now they no longer actively hunt or wardec me, as happened before I started paying.] In HS there is no incentive for me to pay.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

And what if a refinery owner wants people to come to mine? How will they advertise their ore?

Owners have tried offering free mining but with good buyback offers so they can make money from superior refining skills. Search this forum for moon mogul (or mogul mining?) and you will see this model failed spectacularly. They published schedules for daily moon belts, in two systems, and too many people turned up to mine and haul the ore elsewhere and not sell back to them. They advertised here on the forum and via weblink in their refinery bios.

The main 0.5 system I mine also has a published weblink, but not via this forum, and seems to be managing this same model much better … whether it is managing better because it is not over-advertised is (my) speculation. But, they did expand from 2 to 3 daily belts based on “customer” demand. So, organic growth with no need to advertise.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

This is good to know that I can use “combat probes” to fine refineries. Can I use this to fine ore sites? Or scan down the site as warpable beacons?

If you use combat drones to find structures then yes, you can save them as warpable bookmarks.

Normal ore anomalies come up on your regular scanner, as long as you have them clicked. I usually have cosmic anomalies, ore anomalies and combat sites clicked as my defaults. No need for probes.

Whether you can use probes to find active moon belts, I have no idea - try it and see.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

I gather that you want everything to remain the same - and have no change in the game.

No, it is rather that I do not think you have made a case for there to be any changes. Everything you want to be able to do you can already do … it just involves some individual effort.

[Ryan_B_Thiesant]

that make sense. suspect timer for stealing ore.

[Lugh_Crow-Slave]

stealing?

no i said everyone… that includes the people who own it

[Ryan_B_Thiesant]

@Lugh_Crow-Slave

stealing?

no i said everyone… that includes the people who own it

Well, if you put effort to buying a refinery, buying a drill, setting an asteroid field. Then shouldn’t you own it or at least have a beneficial interest in it.

That is set it’s ownership. Then you can set it’s property/access rights from the refinery.

If someone wants to take it, then they get a “suspect timer”.

My case for change is to increase the revenue for capsuleers by;

• advertising moon mining
• monetising moon mining

I’m not sure you have made an argument for it not changing. As the changes i’m proposing would be turned OFF by you. Hence your refinery will not benefit.

But perhaps in the wider concept, you will benefit because your moon ore will be left alone for you to mine.

Ryan

[Lugh_Crow-Slave]

my concept just makes it so that NPC corps are not protected mining your belts nothing more. Your idea wants concord to work with you to protect your belts.

EDIT: oh you mean about broadcasting

my argument against it is that the game is better because you have to work together and communicate rather than giving the game automate every thing for you. the fact that you have to do things that other games would simply deem trivial is what makes the end results worth it

[Ryan_B_Thiesant]

@Lugh_Crow-Slave

my concept just makes it so that NPC corps are not protected mining your belts nothing more. Your idea wants concord to work with you to protect your belts.

EDIT: oh you mean about broadcasting

my argument against it is that the game is better because you have to work together and communicate rather than giving the game automate every thing for you. the fact that you have to do things that other games would simply deem trivial is what makes the end results worth it

My ultimate question is who owns a refinery moon belt? And who should benefit from it? And how can you enforce this?

You concern is will this stop communication. IDK.

Communication: at present I do not need to say anything to a refinery owner. I just start mining. No communication just “theft”.

I mean a lot of things. “I’m dyslexic, mild aut and a little ADD”. Thanks for baring with me.

Theft: I just want a little control over things, as a protective refinery owner. For example do you allow members of your corp to have unlimited access to your assets? Or do you use the limits set on the refinery. “i actually forget what this is called”. But the primis already exists in EVE for a capsuleer stations to control access. I don’t know who gives unrestricted access to their assets to your corp or to NPC corps. Else I could come into your refinery and offline something, not maliciously obviously but because I don’t know the implications. So why not set permissions for your moon belt?

But you think that at the moment you have to ask around for what refinery is mining. I agree this is easier for some. But some shier people just view every system, keep a spreadsheet and make a schedule.

At present anyone can either chat to people or hunt down and mine these moon belts for free*. I don’t think this should be free. When I go into Low or Null and try to mine the “NPC” belts. I sometimes get killed. This is not free*. Because that is how it works. Nothing is free. So why should a refinery moon belt be free to mine, even though they contain high qaulity ore.

*“I usually give a kick back to the owner BTW.” But if I was a refinery owner I would prefer a tax.

My ultimate question is who owns a refinery moon belt? And who should benefit from it? And how can you enforce this?

It seems the refinery pays for everything and can not enforce any revenue.
Sorry I don’t know what broadcasting means.

Ryan

[Lily_Inkura]

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

My ultimate question is who owns a refinery moon belt?

No-one.

It is owned by no-one as it floats free in space.

A parallel example: I have so far found three refineries that were owned by people, yet they were still floating free in space, un-tethered. Once these were loaded into my industrial they were then owned by me.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

And who should benefit from it?

The person who is best able to extract value, irrespective of whether they created the belt or not. That might not be “right” but it is how EvE works.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

And how can you enforce this?

You answer that question for yourself (especially if you are a refinery owner) and you will end up being “the person who is best able to extract value”.

@Ryan_B_Thiesant

It seems the refinery pays for everything and can not enforce any revenue.

Correct. There are no game mechanics that allow a refinery to protect any moon that it is mining.

However, the refinery owner (which has to be a corporation) does have ways to enforce revenue from the belt. Whether these various methods will actually work would however have to be tested. And the only way to test them is to play the game. And, that is the whole point … moon mining is about creating emerging game play. Try the various methods, and if they do not work then make suggestions for changes.