Read the thread or shut your hole already. I am not the person who brought it up. I merely agreed and defended the opinion.
Just drop it.
I did, and it would seem you’re very much in the minority from where i’m sitting, something you seem to fail to grasp despite the poll very clearly indicating this to be true which only reinforces what i’ve personally experienced since 2004
Are you planning on actually proving that multiboxing is actually an issue?
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Take your shifted goal post and cram it where the sun don’t shine.
Then drop it. Stop replying to me since you can’t do it honestly. Leave me alone.
All my replies have been honest, and i haven’t moved the goalposts, you’re the one claiming something is an issue and i’m asking for actual proof, the example you gave compares 2 entirely unrelated industries and 2 scenarios where someone would have an actual gain by having multiple views of the same interaction, whereas in EVE someone having control of 6 ships compared to 6 people controlling 1 ship each doesn’t change the end outcome in any meaningful way, compared to the casino example which would actually provide an unfair advantage
So do you have an example where 1 player controlling 4 ships has an actual advantage over 4 people controlling 1 ship each?
Because if not there is no real argument for the removal of multiboxing and any perceived “unfairness” is actually just a feeling and not actually an issue
RMT, just don’t, getting a perm might be great for your hair but not in eve.
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I guarantee you that CCP cares about botting. They have said that it ranks high as a player concern on surveys, which means they are financially incentivized to do something about, and, unless you think that they are lying, they have put in a lot of effort into combating. Your argument that CCP doesn’t care about botting because botting still exists is akin to saying that the police don’t care about crime because crime still exists, or that doctors without borders don’t care about humanitarian medical issues because disease still exists.
Multiboxing and botters do have an economic impact that can’t be ignored. Moreover, multiboxing does often play a role in PvP (scouts, cyno alts, capital alts, interdictor alts, and all that). However, assuming that multiboxing and botting dictate the meta (1) overestimates their prevalence, (2) overestimates their effect size, and (3) discounts the myriad of other factors that have an effect on the meta. They are but one thing that affects the meta.
FYI, n+1 is the counter to multiboxing. That’s it. That’s the big secret. Make friends. Assuming all other things being equal (i.e. player skill, character skill, ship cost): Real People Fleet > Multiboxing Fleet > Solo.
You are not informing players as to the nature of Eve because you are not providing them with an accurate representation of Eve. Sigh, I doubt this will persuade you, but it might persuade someone reading this. So… the people who see ghosts are the people that believe in ghosts. You think botting is everywhere, so you see botting everywhere. I’d bet money that you are assuming botting when the evidence is ambiguous, and possibly even when the evidence is to the contrary. I have had people message me when I was a young industrialist asking me if I was a bot because I was so tenacious with updating market orders. And I’ve had people straight up accusing me of being a bot in local when seeing me multibox. So, I know for a fact that some people are seeing botting where there is no botting, and I’d bet RL money that you’re one of those people.
Botting is an actual problem for the game. And encouraging that others do it hurts all relevant stakeholders. It can get people banned, it can get you banned, it can drive inflation and the price of plex, it can hurt player acquisition and retention, and can hurt CCP’s bottom line, which can affect whether or not the servers stay on. I just don’t understand how you can view botting as a problem, and think that the solution is to encourage more of it. Moreover, painting a false picture of the game does not benefit potential players. It only keeps people away from the game that would otherwise enjoy it, and hurts the game as a whole.
Okay, this goes for everyone who is making these arguments (1) if CCP bans multiboxing, then only cheaters will have the advantages of multiboxing, and (2) players should cheat because other players cheat.
Okay, so I’ve seen very similar arguments get used in real life politics. But I’ll refrain from specifics in attempt to avoid this becoming political. Suffice it to say, I think that these are bad arguments. Something should not be criminalized/banned based upon whether or not it can be enforced with 100% efficacy. Nor should harmful practices be allowed because other people are doing it. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Holy crap Brewlar. I guess I know how all the anti-boxers feel now, because I think you are doing actual harm to the game.
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It’s important to quantify the prevalence of cheating in the system. If only 3% of people are doing it, then the right thing to do would be to criminalize and fight it. But if it’s like a third or more of all people doing it, then it’s so systemic and integrated that an outsider can rationally assume that it’s a feature. And EVE definitely leans toward the latter.
In the case of multiboxing, yes.
In the case of botting, I don’t think so.
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Even if everyone and their grandmother is doing it? We’re talking about 90% of null-sec and probably over a third of all high-sec bears. Telling players not to bot when it’s so prevalent just sounds like intentional sabotage at that point, like you’re trying to scare them away so that there’s more money for you, you know what I mean?
So, do you think players should flop in soccer? Do you consider it a feature of the game? Should anything be done to discourage it?
FYI, soccer players apparently used to be pretty hard core back in the day.
Should they? No. But at this point, they have to just to remain competitive.
Well, assuming all other things being equal, the cheater would have an advantage. But all things are rarely equal. So no, they don’t need to cheat in order to remain competitive (well, at least not yet in Eve).
Also, I have difficulty understanding what compels people to cheat. I mean, if you cheated to win, then you didn’t actually win. I just don’t understand it. It’s like typing in an extra three zeros at the end of your bank statement -it doesn’t change anything or mean anything… I just don’t get it.
My favorite/most memorable gaming experience of all time was playing dominoes with a roommate of mine over a 4 or 5 year span. I was better than him when we first started playing. I counted dominoes and made decisions based upon the odds. Then he started winning… a lot. I started getting frustrated because he was consistently trouncing my ass. Finally, during one game in which I was getting particularly frustrated, he finally said, “do you still not understand what’s going on? This entire time we’ve been playing, you’ve been counting dominoes, and playing the odds. Once I figured this out, you became extremely predictable. I could tell what was in your hand based upon how you were playing. You have been playing these bones; meanwhile I have been playing you -pun intended.”
After hearing this, I completely changed how I played. I still counted bones, but I used this knowledge to make informed decisions, rather than dictate how I played. And I started playing in ways that could confuse and bait my roommate. With this shift in my play, I trounced him for a few games before he said something to the effect of, “well, I’m glad you finally learned,” and began to adjust his game play to my new strats.
Our meta would evolve several times over the course of 5 years, and we both grew tremendously as players. I won a lot of games, and I lost a lot of games. But I loved playing with him. And aside from that time when I was a dumbass early on, no amount of losing could sour the experience. I guess you could say that I played for the love of the game.
So, I don’t understand why people cheat. I guess it’s because they love winning more than they love playing.
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Botting is Very bad.
I applaud ccp for perma banning botters and any accounts linked to them in any way. I think they should go further, maybe, like also banning the people they most often sell to.
Unless it’s through the market, at which case you can’t really determine if they’re botting, they just have the best prices.
It would incentivize people to consider the people they interact with. I can assure you that nobody in my corp or alliance bots, as they would be immediately kicked out if Any evidence were brought forth. Then the reports would flow.
I’ve been accused of botting several times. When I mined ice especially. Some people can’t distinguish the difference between botting and multiboxing. Ccp can.
My hs miners typically mine in systems where almost nobody goes on purpose. I don’t have to deal with code or anyone else. I don’t impact new players or their ability to do x,y,z.
However, I do impact the market by providing ships and modules at reasonable prices. I feel like I am doing good, because I don’t inflate the market like some people do.
That’s just my outlook though.
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Unrelated question.
In another thread, someone is claiming ccp plans to reduce hs ore by 75%, but I can’t find an announcement to that effect.
Do any of you fine capsuleers know of such a plan?
That’s the thing: botting isn’t really considered cheating anymore, and hasn’t been for a while. It’s simply too ubiquitous to be considered cheating now.
It’s kind of like crossing the street on a red light, when there’s no traffic or cops around to see you do it. Technically it’s still against the law, but everyone is doing it, and you can get away with it 99% of the time. And when you do get caught, the punishment is relatively light.
Yes, you can be that person who stands at the crosswalk and waits for two minutes for the light to change on principle. Maybe it will help you sleep better at night. But most other people won’t bother to abide by these limitations because the positives outweigh the negatives by a significant margin.
I’m not advocating botting. I dislike it. But at the same time, I understand why people are doing it so extensively.
Blame CCP for this. They nurtured an environment in which it’s almost a requirement to compete with others economically. Botting is almost a sort of economic externality, and one from which CCP is reaping financial rewards in the form of extra subscription money. They could hurt botting much worse than they do, but the fallout from doing it could be so negative that they’d lose significant portions of their revenue.
Well, I’m not sure that you can be sure that no one is botting in a large organization, but I’m glad that they take a hard stance on the issue.
I also can’t agree with the idea that you have no economic impact on newbro competitors. You may not impact them directly, but flooding the market with vast quantities of ore/ice puts downward pressure on prices, and reduces their isk efficiency. Of course, we all also enjoy cheaper living costs thanks to all the multiboxing miners (and other industrialists / resource gatherers that have multiple toons). I’m not going to say that it all balances out, but I do strongly maintain that multiboxers can actually benefit other players in some ways.
Anyway, I agree with the rest of your statement, I just had a few nitpicks with it.
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I don’t sell ore or ice.
I use every unit I harvest.
Cheers
Okay, so we fundamentally disagree on just how prevalent botting is. And, I’m not sure that we can get to the bottom of just how much botting is going on without CCP chiming in with their data and/or estimates. Suffice it to say, I believe that there is considerably less botting going on. In fact, I would peg the numbers in the 1-2 percent range of players. I know, I know, you disagree. But, I’m not sure we can reach an agreement without more data.
I haven’t heard that. Could be true, but also equally likely that it came from people drawing erroneous conclusions about something a dev said on a podcast, or something like that.
Maybe I’m living in a different spot of null sec, but of all the ships I see out here in space I’m 100% sure the vast majority is actively playing. The rest are afk (cloaky camping) all day, not really botting either.
Could be that other regions of null have more bots though, they would prefer more quiet systems.
That just sounds to low to me. But I have no data either.