Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Wadiest_Yong]

tbh I think the topic has been milked dry, all points have been repeated and iterated on.
PvP is part of New Eden, it’s what makes it dark and dangerous, it’s the excitement factor. The game is going nowhere fast if the goal is to start attracting people who will never understand it, embrace its nature, and uphold its reputation of being complex, hard, even gleefully naughty. Add to that the fact that ccp is too small a company - not to mention ‘unfocused’ - to turn this game into a theme park successfully, let alone maintain it as such. If the current influx of potential players mostly contains people who are no longer up for a tough game then we may have bigger issues than the survival of this game…

But there’s no longer a point in repeating all this.
This thread is where other, similar threads find a resting place.
Amen.

[Ramona_McCandless]

I think the ghost in the shell is having a little rage attack lol

[Katya_Itzimaru]

@Lucas_Kell

Ganking is too easy, damages the reputation of the game by presenting it as a place for griefers (which it is, because most gankers are doing it to “salt mine”) and it causes new player churn. Ganking should be nerfed heavily or removed entirely.

Ganking and highsec PVP is comparatively very weak compared to it’s state throughout the game’s history. HP of ships like barges and freighters are up, and with sub prices alt numbers are down.

There’s no conclusive evidence that the actual act of ganking harms new player experience - quite the opposite as CCP state their data shows that losing ships to other players tends to improve player retention.

The real thing one sees in Rookie Help all the time that drives away new players is scaremongering by snivelling cowards that massively overrate the threat of ganking to both new and experienced players.

Your narrative about “griefing” is based on a completely subjective opinion with no consistent logic to it.

Your arguments are of no value because you refuse to provide evidence for any of your claims.

[Gix_Firebrand]

LOL imagine thinking ganking is a PvE activity.

How embarrassing

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Wadiest_Yong

Arsia was leading our fleet, or at least FC’d it from time to time

Yeah, there was plenty of suicide ganking during the invasions. But there wasn’t that many insane losses for the organized groups outside of really big groups catching people in Niarja. Mainly because both sides roughly understood the mechanics and were smart about it. It’s really a lot easier to stay safe than people seem to think it is, just by learning the mechanics involved in the process. The invasions were actually the first time I had ever tried my hand at suicide ganking people in high sec ( <3 The EDENCOM Stairs Delivery Service and all the alts that helped with that ).

Both sides utilized it to kill the other at times and there was certainly opportunistic third parties. But that’s just something to consider and know how to react to when it happens. There are steps to take to keep yourself safer no matter what you’re doing in every area of space, and high sec is no different. Stuff needs to explode for the Eve economy to persist, but if you’re careful, it doesn’t need to be your stuff too much of the time.

[Wadiest_Yong]

The game, its design, and playing it, is an intricate interplay of consequences. It would lead to too many words to go in depth on this, and frankly I’m fed up with it at the moment. I’ll just try to exemplify without giving the reasons or reasoning. A question of “what did the author mean with the brown spider on page 46”, that’s the risk I take, lol.

Griefing = harassment = people pushed out of the game = bad
Ganking = (non-consensual) pvp = tough for some, easy for others = not a retention factor other than historic = part of the game.

Hotspots of hisec ganking are a consequence of design choices on many levels, for instance there’s a reason why many rookies pick Caldari, probably multiple reasons. That’s also where hotspots are. Establishing starter systems next to heavy trade routes … you know… Hisec ganking in its current format is an optimized solution.

Amarr space doesn’t have particular issues or high incidences of rookie kills. Minmatar space probably similar. Those are the two areas that are, for several reasons, less popular.
Spread rookies out more efficiently (as a game designer), trade route hotspots will remain where they are, anything related to rookie griefing would become more visible (at least to ccp), etc.

Early progress in this game is of course partially related to isk (and ship losses), but the will to succeed has to be there as well. It has always been a big factor., if not a big filter or selection criterion (yes yes, I’ve been called arrogant and ignorant for saying this, whatever).

A different filter/selection criterion is the sandbox nature of the game. It’s not for everyone, sandboxes are not the most favorite element on any playground. It actually requires imagination to play in it. A swing doesn’t. Sandbox, imagination and the will to get guud have to go hand in hand to be enjoyable. Call me arrogant and ignorant, it doesn’t make it less real.

Ganking in its current shape is a direct consequence to design choices and changes that ccp has made, just like the HAC meta in pvp. When new choices and changes will be made, so will the shape of ganking in hisec.

The potential of misuse of any safety increasing measures by non-pvp’ers is always present, usually announced up front by players on how and why… Those affect the economy directly. Yes, it may for some new players be a reason to linger a while longer, but for the long term health of the game’s economy it is most likely a bad thing. The optimized solutions not only exist in sov gameplay and pvp doctrines, they exist even more (and covertly !) in indy/manuf and especially in trading They are the spreadsheet wizards !! Of course it’s hard to say how exactly, if there is no hint of a change.

dixit

[Katya_Itzimaru]

@Lucas_Kell

And when you speak to non-EVE players about EVE they’ve often heard that it allows griefing in the form of ganking and that puts them off playing it, so it’s not even just the churn.

You literally just supported my point that the overblown fearmongering of ganking is putting people off, not the actual thing itself.

You’re perpetrating it right now by equating people shooting each other for fun in a PVP video game with griefing.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Arsia_Elkin

Both sides utilized it to kill the other at times and there was certainly opportunistic third parties. But that’s just something to consider and know how to react to when it happens. There are steps to take to keep yourself safer no matter what you’re doing in every area of space, and high sec is no different. Stuff needs to explode for the Eve economy to persist, but if you’re careful, it doesn’t need to be your stuff too much of the time.

Chip truth

What has to happen in the NPE is actually teaching peeps how to avoid being ganked. It may still happen, but if you keep your wits about you, you’ll be good for the most part.

@Wadiest_Yong

Amarr space doesn’t have particular issues or high incidences of rookie kills. Minmatar space probably similar.

There was one system in Amarr that burns on the reg, unsure if it still does.

For Min, Hek has ganking sometimes. Aufay in Gal also gets nuts sometimes.

@Lucas_Kell

Except that CCP stated in this fanfest that ganking new players increase new player churn rates.

They said griefing bruv. Not ganking

@Lucas_Kell

For the most part it is. It’s the gankers vs the concord mechanics.

ROFL. So embarassing. I cannot even imagine why you think this line of reasoning will work. If peeps fitted a proper tank, they’d stand a much better chance of surviving LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

Most people do know it’s easy to stay safe, and that’s part of the problem. Ganking disproportionately affects new players because anyone who isn’t a new player is far more able to stay safe.

So teach them

Or yennoe, they could Google an almost 20 year old game to learn some stuff. Amazing

@Katya_Itzimaru

You’re perpetrating it right now by equating people shooting each other for fun in a PVP video game with griefing.

What boggles my mind is people play EVE but don’t like it LOL.

You chose to play an open world PvP game. Like what the quafe?

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Gix_Firebrand

There was one system in Amarr that burns on the reg, unsure if it still does.

Used to be a couple, back in the big CODE days there was one right near Amarr, on the turnpike up to Aridia, but thats as quiet as the grave now.

The hottest spot in Amarr space is sometimes Odin, but Ive lived in Devoid now for most of my time and really, its nothing.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Gix_Firebrand

For Min, Hek has ganking sometimes. Aufay in Gal also gets nuts sometimes.

yep
but it’s always the question of looking for the reason behind a number, it’s just impossible. Even Lucas admitted it. Numbers don’t tell mindsets, reasons, feelings, retention …

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Gix_Firebrand

What has to happen in the NPE is actually teaching peeps how to avoid being ganked. It may still happen, but if you keep your wits about you, you’ll be good for the most part.

@Lucas_Kell

Most people do know it’s easy to stay safe, and that’s part of the problem. Ganking disproportionately affects new players because anyone who isn’t a new player is far more able to stay safe.

Yeah, there’s definitely opportunity to teach some basic principles about staying safe in the NPE! That’s a good point. Steps to urge people into corporations and better tools for finding good corps in-game will go a long way towards that end too!

As far as the percentage of new players who get ganked versus the percentage of people who’ve been around a bit… I can’t claim to have the numbers. My anecdotal experience leads me to believe it’s not primarily newer players getting blown up. But it’d certainly be interesting to see something like the average age of pilots who lose a ship to gankers and probably moreso exactly how much is lost in value. I expect the overall value of losses is fairly significant, but again that’s just based on my personal experiences and not hard numbers. I do think, though, that without the possibility of ganking, it because almost infinitely safe to do already too safe things like high sec incursions or Abyssal runs.

I do certainly wish there was less toxicity and smack-talk in PvP (in all areas of space, honestly). It’s neither okay to abuse people who kill you or people you kill and both scenarios happen pretty regularly.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Arsia_Elkin

My anecdotal experience leads me to believe it’s not primarily newer players getting blown up.

It isn’t

@Arsia_Elkin

I do think, though, that without the possibility of ganking, it because almost infinitely safe to do already too safe things like high sec incursions or Abyssal runs.

Yep!

[Roxana_Dawn]

@Lucas_Kell

How much danger does suicide ganking actually pose to those though? And if the issue is that they are too rewarding for the inherent risk then the reward should be lowered.

Yet abyssal runs are not rewarding enough
if you add the risk of getting ganked once you get out its way to risky for the little amount of reward you get
I tried it and i quit immediately

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

Ganking is too easy, damages the reputation of the game by presenting it as a place for griefers (which it is, because most gankers are doing it to “salt mine”) and it causes new player churn.

People repeating the same lie 547 times in one thread, as if it became more true if repeated often enough, is what actually damages the game.

You were heard and responded to the first time. Do you have anything new to add ?

[Altara_Zemara]

Hey…this ‘rookie’ has destroyed more ISK value in 6 months than you have in 10 years.

As you clearly don’t have anything new or of value to add, I’m off to actually play Eve. Try it some time !

[Io_Koval]

@Arsia_Elkin

I can’t claim to have the numbers. My anecdotal experience leads me to believe it’s not primarily newer players getting blown up.

Other people have run various numbers on either zKill data (here in the forums) or – if they’re a ganker – personal ganking stats (videos, blogs, etc). Whatever the underlying bias of the dataset, a common general theme I’ve seen is that the main people who get ganked are those who have been playing in the 6-12 months range, and a theory I have is it is because:

1. They never learned how to avoid getting ganked as a newbie; and
2. 6-12 months is just enough time to acquire a non-negligible amount of assets; and
3. Combining the two above, they foolishly tried to haul a significant portion of their assets without any steps to mitigate the gank risk.

There is also the “day 1” data anomaly because someone spins up an alt and goes straight to jita and packs a silly ship with PLEX or LSI. It’s impossible to know whether the player that does this is actually a newbie, but most people are usually inclined to think “no”.

Whatever Lucas has to say about the above, is going to be contrarian. And not constructive to the dialog.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

It had been stated by the company that drinking redbull while gaming improves mental capability so perhaps the answer to Nerf Ganking is in the can?

[Ramona_McCandless]

See now all he ever seems to say is

[Io_Koval]

I’m betting he wouldn’t appreciate Scipio’s analysis on all of Safety.

It was 12-24 months in that graph not 6-12, which makes it even less of a newbie thing.

[Altara_Zemara]

Macgybo did an analysis of his own kills at Perimiter/Jita…about 15% were ‘1 day old’ noobs, but then he only attacks ships over several hundred million in ISK, and what are the chances that a genuine 1 day old noob is carrying 1bn ISK skill injectors.

As with your own analysis…most of those ganked were in the 1-2 year old range, and were simply complacent. And amazingly he ganks oldbies carrying PLEX, when no-one needs to carry PLEX.