actually i am dismissing the offtopic discussion. It has nothing to do with the main topic so its not a red herring.
I will remind you the main topic is discussing. Why is nul and low sec not enough to satisfy the need for excitement in the game? Why is blowing someone up with a green button considered “not boring” to you people? When i would suspect the excitement of open pvp available in low and nul should satisfy your competitive needs.
Unless you’re not after competition.
Uh so you admit you know nothing about it and are straight lying? Wut. Why should we believe anything you say then ROFL.
Bro, peeps are literally not doing the bare minimum to survive. They deserve death 
Wut. We do have the facts. We literally know what people use to gatecamp in HS and it ain’t smartbombing nados ROFL. Learn to EVE bro. Its obv you don’t play the game at all.
Its all competition. I would argue killing someone in high sec is one of the hardest things to do if the target is competent
I like taking players’ money by force and then reading the letters they send me about finding out where I live in real life and raping and/or murdering me.
We need a Buff Ganking Megathread.
its ok i will be there to complain enough to CCP to make sure its a nerf instead of a buff.
gilas can’t even do 1/10 and 2/10s dude. No one sees your points because you have none also, game companies have never once taken my advice and then I watch them suffer for not taking it because often times, the advice I give actually came from people who do care about the game and play it unlike you considering you actually believe that 1/10s are done in blinged out gilas lmfao. 
Imagine actually playing the game instead of rebuffing people trying to help it, you too would have experienced the popup of “this gate doesn’t accept cruisers, here is a list of what’s accepted” and those blinged out gilas going to anoms and sigs aren’t going in front of you. In real life, in real space, I could entire a solar system from 360 degrees and if all your forces where on the wrong side of the solar system you’re going to have to take time to come find me. The only people who suck are players who NEED to be given kills like gate campers.
Also, if people wanted to gank in corvettes, they totally could with numbers which is what they already do at gate camps.
Its called hyperbole
Huh. So strange you aren’t some kind of multi-millionaire since you are such a vidya game guru! I mean, if you were so good, surely they must have noticed?
yennoe, if you are getting real life and EVE confused, you may need some help
Yet you admit no one is ganking in corvettes
I am reading what you are writing, but no I am not talking about a single-player game. What you are describing isn’t what would be traditionally on any level PvP, and yes many have made this argument in the past. To clarify PvP is player against a player directly, every other indirect activity is PvE. This you would find as the matching opinion in the vast part of the gaming industry, although there are others like you that have a different view and I can acknowledge that and accept it. In my post, I am talking about a player directly against a player, traditional PvP.
And I wouldn’t want to create a 100% safe spot, but an ever-increasing NPC strength from 1.0 system easy to 0.5 system hard. Everything beyond that is PvP and NPC would be Hard to Very Hard as it is already. You would control the market flooding how you do it today, you can’t rat a 1.0 system and really make forward progress, you can but it is so insignificant I would almost say it doesn’t count. There are only so many belts in a 1.0 system. Essentially as the game is today, people would naturally expand out into the Eve Universe looking for their home and challenge. Player span out to harder NPC areas, making players engage and understand ship mechanics better, slowly getting better skills trained until 0.5 System NPC is hard but you can survive it if equipped correctly. At which point I think a person is ready and has the skills to partake in PvP or even join a low or null organization and make a contribution. And that person would also have a little better confidence as they went through the different stages if they choose. If they are happy in a 1.0 system then so be it. It is the game today, without non-consensual PvP (all other legal acts of PvP would have to remain) (High Sec).
I only partially agree that destruction is the driving force of the player-driven economy, but would agree it is a major factor in that. The other side is even in a zero destructive state, people always want more, more ship fits, different setups and the list goes on. But PvP doesn’t have to be and is not the end-all-be-all destruction driver in High Sec. I have mentioned before Triglavans destroyed trillions in a matter of the first couple of months they were unleashed. This rival and succeeds 99% of what we call epic PvP war battles, in numbers only, which is the driving force of the game? Or is it?
It is all about the experience in the game, and how that experience transfers to the players and keeps them coming back.
Cheers,
OP
This is a very blinkered view of things and overlooks so much. Just because on paper NPC’s appear dangerous doesn’t mean they are.
Ok so ……….
Accepted but non traditional PVP is still PVP. If player A and B hate one another and Player A contracts Player C to move a freighter full of goods from Amarr to Jita and Player B finds out about it. Player B can go and organise for Player C’s freighter to be taken down on route. Player C is caught in the cross fire but the action is PVP between player A and B although the were never even in the same system. Not the best example but you get the point. There is far more going on in EVE on a day to day basis than merely, go to a PVP zone, have a fight, go home. Competition extends past far beyond a simple fight and actions on markets and elsewhere have consequences for players and corps alike. Saying but traditionally PVP is this when talking about a game that is not traditional in the slightest is just sweeping so many complexities that don’t sit with your proposal under the rug and pretending they don’t exist.
You might not want to. But its what will happen. There was a discussion in another thread i was in recently about whether gankers could be replaced by NPC’s which i found interesting. The gist of which is that NPC activity will always be predictable. There will be mechanics and as soon as the player base works out those mechanics they are exploitable. Things like “once a group of rats has been destroyed in a system they wont respawn for 60minutes”, “rats will spend 2 hours in a system and then move on”, “in 1.0 and 0,9 systems you will never be webbed or screamed” etc etc. So like during the trip invasion the destruction will come from the initial surprise of the mechanics change and from newbies not knowing anything. After that destruction will tail off and everyone will just know how to deal with rats.
And to provide you with a specific example. What about Player C’s freighter? If players cant take it down then he has zero risk unless NPC’s are capable of taking it down. If NPC’s ARE capable of taking it down by webbing, scramming and having sufficient DPS then how are newbies going to handle that same trip in their badger? At least gankers will on many occasions look at the target and scan it, determine its not worth it and everyone goes about their day. NPC’s not so much.
It’s a nice idea. But from where i am sitting its the players that have already naturally expanded out into the universe found their home and challenge that are most vocal about “no gankers”……”krab in safety” “why are players allowed to impact my gameplay”. This isn’t about progression in any shape or form. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt as you have at least shown you are thinking about it on some level, but 95% of players asking for ganking to be abolished and no PVP in highsec…….simply want a safe space to farm. No destruction just isk faucets.
If this was implemented tomorrow countless players would “progress” from null and low into safeville and afk their isk till the crash the market.
Progression and challenge is not in their vocab.
Counter viewpoint. A player is ready to join low or null and make a contribution about 2 seconds after they have completed the new player experience. The forums are littered with stories of folk that joined game, got a mail form a null corp, signed up, made the trip and never looked back. Sure space is dangerous but this narrative that is spun in chat channels and elsewhere that you don’t go here or PVP “till you are ready” is just nonsense. It’s this mentality thats the biggest problem with player retention in my view.
CCP’s own statistics and study have indicated that player retention is better on players that have experienced destruction early in their career. Now there isn’t much to go on with regards to timescales and what constitutes early in career. But I would ASSUME as follows:
A new player right out the gate flys into low by mistake gets blapped. A few minutes later a GM makes contact (they do that now with new accounts as part of the NPE) and says “hey dude, here’s why you died. Maybe next time you could try this. And by the way here are some free ships for you to try (they are doing that to). That player thinks “ah so this is the game huh” and has a better idea of what they are getting into.
Another player finishes the NPE and joins a corp that give him some free ships and he starts running missions in a corner of high sec. It’s quiet. the corp keeps telling him how dangerous it is out their but ………he is safe at home if just keeps his head down. Said player grinds himself some isk and lp and invests in better ships. He even adds some bling coz he is safe here at home. And then one day we have some gankers on patrol and boom. He gets blapped. He isnt a newbie anymore so no contact from GM to explain or give new ships. And the ship he lost was bling………he is like back to square one. The months spent being told he was safe and no experience of destruction built up a massive sense of entitlement. And that entitlement will result in either the player quitting, or finding the forum to demand ganking is ended and that he is given a safe place to farm.
Is the problem the gankers? Or the whole ethos around the “don’t PVP until you are ready” culture that permeates the game?
Have you looked at how much of that was random kills in space? And how much of that was people in battleships actively fighting trig combat sites in invasion systems in the content created around the invasion? Coz id wager that would be a fairly significant number.
I don’t think that destruction figure is saying what you think it is 
I posted no stats of how the NPC would work. I am not even a programmer Try your best to take the post as all of it would need thought and development with it, because it would. Even being such a deep game it would be very hard to change anything, without affecting someone.
Player A and C are in direct contact as the freight is being taken out. This I agree on PvP. The noncontact of Player A and B is not PvP, but a level of competitiveness, I call this PvE. But with that said I can get on board with how you describe as we agree, we just call it different things. So I am not sweeping anything under the rug. A player being influenced by their environment, even if that environment is adjusted by a player to me is PvE.
I mean when is the last time gankers changed their ship and fitting style? Point is, even if predictable doesn’t change patterns or thoughts. It would be very easy to script in the rats to have variables in numbers, times, and how they harass the system if it is belts, custom offices, gates, or stations.
There could be a lot of options here. It could go as far as if something of the like of my scenario came true, then you could remove all high sec capital class ships. Or like done today, you have an escort with your industrial ship as it moves around or take your chances with NPC. In my scenario, the risk is still the NPC as you have described. How a player deals with that is still up to them, that part we can’t change or control.
We can keep having this discussion but there is no safe place being proposed. If what I proposed did happen and tons of crabs came in and trashed the market, it would still fix itself. There is only so many resources in a 24hr period. If one activity was being pushed in this example you gave, the market would correct the player’s behavior. If you want to keep mining trit for one isk then so be it, at least some of the capital and up ship prices would come down with all safe activities. But the goal would be to adjust NPC to keep players on their toes, not afk mining all day. The same issue currently actually does exist in Null and that is botting, and it is very safe space, well protected, and very efficient.
I would say this is the minority, not the majority. It is very hard to figure out your bearings if you went directly to Null. I would say most of those players joined because they knew someone in the corps already. In most of Null, there is no NPC station, there is no way to buy BPO, there is rarely a BPC for sale, ships for sale are limited, T1 modules are limited, and it is hard to sell items in Null. The list of struggles would continue here. For the average person that went there directly to Null/WH, they would struggle and without the direct help of a corp mate, they would quit. The same could be said about High sec, yes, but I would believe a much less statistical chance, simply because High can be a little more forgiving if luck is on your side. I have no data to back it up though.
I agree with this deeply, maybe slightly different, but the concept is on point. If we make a good experience people keep playing if not well they leave.
I don’t have the data, I do help lots of new players in corp and trying to get people to stay in the game. I can say GM or no GM even though they are nice in the conversation, no one feels good about it. They all hate it, up to this point. Maybe one day I will get a new bro that is like, yeah got blapped today, loved it, it was a great experience. But until then, the random, experience feedback I get, is it is not liked, welcomed and doesn’t encourage, and that is to people that literally stop playing at around that 4 month mark when they finally just give up.
In my world, it would be 100% the space you are in. If you are in low, null, wh and have this type of mentality that you are, that would absolutely be incorrect. Ganking in those spaces I feel is 100% called for, you want the space you fight for it.
I am not sure it matters in terms of destruction, it doesn’t matter how it is manufactured it consumes raw products and keeps the industrial machine of Eve working which is the foundation of everything in the game.
Earlier today, a couple of hours ago.
Good copy
Cheers,
OP
It absolutely does matter. You are using the idea that trig rats roaming in systems was an effective way of providing risk to miners, haulers and ratters and therefore can replace the destruction caused by gankers. You are basing that effectiveness on trillions of isk being destroyed. But if 99% of those trillions were bling battleships getting blown up in end game combat sites its false data. To understand how effective those roaming fleets were you need to understand how much they destroyed………not how much was destroyed in all trig content.
An equivalent argument for todays game is including the value of ships lost to NPC’s in Pochven as destruction to High sec rats.
Are you really telling me trig rats killed trillions worth of mining ships in a few months? (550 orcas at todays prices? Closer to 1000 orcas at 2020 prices. Or 4000 exhumers? And thats just a trillion. Not trillions)
One must also consider the ‘fun’ factor.
Losing ships to NPC rats might be efficient, but people play games for fun. What’s fun is encountering elite PvP gankstars, who lead you on a wild space adventure, which results in your decision to purchase an affordable mining permit.
Ok i laughed. Very good
Duels, War, Proving Grounds will still be there for the chance of PvP content if you were on the fence for one reason or the other. No one wants PvP out of the game, it is how it is managed.
Cheers,
OP
Non-consensual PvP is the only true PvP - consensual PvP is just roleplay.
See…….this. This would destroy the game for so many.
Duels and proving grounds are fun sure. But we are talking about instanced content. Pulling players out of the sandbox where other players cannot interact with them. It’s a step towards having a PVP server.
No NO NOOOOOO
I am absolutely not pulling and analyzing that information for you. You don’t know, I don’t know we will have to leave this one at that for now.
Cheers,
OP
