Did they tell you what was pertinent or not to the problem, and dismiss what they found inconvenient as mere suspicion?
All I did was express doubt as to the need for an independent commission to investigate allegations of FIO malfeasance in the territories of the State and the need for more documentary evidence of their involvement in supposed facilities in Black Rise.
I have my doubts because 1) Federation Navy ships are permitted in Caldari State space by the treaty of Iyen-Oursta and 2) There exists no corroboration of FIO malfeasance beyond Neocom descriptors which as the Triglavians have shown can be subverted by information and cyber warfare of third parties.
For all I know, Federation Navy ships could have been lured to such facilities in the interests of framing them for crimes they did not commit.
As such, again, until an independent investigation presents its findings I remain dubious of presently presented narratives of alleged FIO malfeasance in Black Rise.
They were by hitherto unknown means duped into defending prisons of apparent Gallente make, full of abused Caldari soldiers; repeatedly⊠for about a decade?
There is âI do not have information about itâ and there is âI do have information, but i am assuming it is not trueâ
You know you can go to those sites right?
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The allegations of FIO malfeasance in question are based solely on Neocom descriptors from networks shown to be historically unsecure and hearsay in my view.
Tortures are done not by the FIO, but by the FedNavy.
Shame for not knowing that.
FIO are known for their tortures as well, they might be even more brutal - itâs their âinformation extraction methodsâ (though I really doubt itâs effective, people under pain will say whatever the torturers want, which most likely wonât be truth, which means FIO does that only because theyâre sick sadists like your typical gallente), but, luckily, theyâre not as common as what the Fed Navy does to POWs on a daily basis.
Okay, so would you like an expanded answer then?
First thing that you should understand that the idea of Caldari of accepting a help from Federal citizen could be treated as a collaboration with an enemy - a rather serious crime with heavy consequences for the Citizen (even if there would be almost none for the Federal âhelperâ), but, yes, by offering the help you can hurt the Citizens. Nor that Citizens will be eager to accept foreignerâs help. Weâre very proud nation, you know?
The main reason for this is that there is a war going on betwen the State and Federation and if you really would like to help, instead of trying to see whatâs beyond the fence, you should check whatâs behind your own. As it was mentioned above, and several times already, I assume, the Federal government (or, precisely, itâs Navy) commits an inhuman treatment over Caldari prisoners, gallentean occupants still control significant parts of our Homeworld, there are systems in Black Rise still oppressed by the Federal invaders. Under these conditions the best help you could offer to the State is to deal with these issues.
Speaking as Caldari, I can say - that we donât need the war, we donât want the war, but we will keep the fight until thereâs at least a single invader on our territory.
I understand, that it isnât related much to the problem that was âpresentedâ by the gurista, but it does address a question of what a Federal citizen could do to help us. Because itâs a Federal citizen, a citizen of an aggressor nation that controls part of our very homeworldâŠ
To understand better what we feel about this situation, imagine this:
An armed robber with a shotgun breaks into your home, kicking the door on the floor with his boot. He shoots your grandma, he takes a sweetroll and eats that, staring at you, then points to the leaking pipe, âHey, I see you have a problem here, is there anything I could do to help you with it?ââŠ
That means also that any offer from Federation we will likely treat as a hypocrisy. If you genuinely want to help, fixing that leaking pipe is not the thing you should be looking at. Taking down your criminal government that commits atrocities against our citizens - thatâs what could be done.
But, yes, that doesnât actually answer the question itself of what can be done about the situation, so⊠lets see into that.
For that Iâve given answer already, that was rather short: âFight guristaâ. And thatâs, actually, it. The current turbulence in the State was caused by gurista attempt of propaganda by spreading forged reels to blame one of our leading and honorable Megacorporations in what they havenât done. These people somehow hacked access to the media, that really should be better protected against common pirates and brigands like gurista. And, unfortunately, some people were rather week-minded and gullible to fall for guristaâs nonsence, which caused some turbulence.
Of course, second thing you should understand, that dealing with the consesquences like these is Caldari Stateâs internal issues, whatever, how and where we will use to calm down our citizens is Caldari business and nobody elses. Any sort of outside intervention in this we will consider as a hostile aggression and will deal with it with military power withot mercy and regret.
On the other hand, there are still those who have caused this - Gurista pirates. Their existence long ago stopped being State business exclusively. The criminal organization knows no boundaries or borders, they operate in the whole cluster, they hide in null security space from where they can plan their illegal actions against lawful citizens of all the Empires on New Eden. The more their nests we will burn down, the less crimes will be committed - both in the State and outside. And for Federal citizen there is no need to actually go into State territory or peek behind the fence to deal with this menace, guristas prosper even in the Federation, they hide in lawless null security space - and thatâs where you can hit them. Even your corrupt government wonât object you fighting the pirates, because, I have said, they create problems not just for our citizens, but for everyone else around.
And, thatâs, basically, it.
Once we will close the Gurista problem for good, there wonât be anymore turbulences like this.
Still want to help? Grab your guns and hunt down these pirates. After all, isnât it what the CONCORD made the capsuleer program for? Shoot the scum, get paid by CONCORD and make everyone lives in the cluster safer.
As a capsule pilot, this is the best thing you can do.
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Speaking of stepping on snakes, what have you done to reduce the influence of Serpentice Serpentis the areas of operation available to you? The atrocities you describe are much more likely to be perpetrated by those poisonous profiteers than federally sanctioned services.
I can not deny the existence of corruption within the Federation, but that corruption was, maybe is, in no small part interjected by Salvador Sarpati; of State origin.
If I have one concern about this initiative it is the lack of moderation on display in inviting new toxicity into the body of the Federation.
A Hethalite would resonate with a call for focus and discipline in dealing with the depravity at hand.
Presuming you mean Serpentis here and- what the hell are you even saying? I genuinely cannot tell if this is just failing spectacularly at misdirection and deceit or if you people genuinely cannot process reality.
These are Federal facilities, manned by Federal forces, using Federal equipment and recognized by the Federation as legitimate, if the sanctions against engaging them are any indicator.
And you say itâs the SerpentisâŠ?
Iâm sorry, but if the Federation is so fundamentally corrupt that their Navy is under the control of pirate organizations to that degree then it may as well be dismantled in totality, because at that point nothing but a hard societal reset could save its people. You are basically saying that the Federation in its current form is just a criminal front.
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My purpose is to build bridges over impossible divides.
I have simply highlighted a commonality between our points of contention in the hope that we may build a footing that can bear the load of future understanding. Just as was attempted with the ARC affair before its ultimate failure.
I and my Sistren owe the Federation our freedom. It pains me to see you disparage it so.
And ways were provided.
Unless one wants to change the perspective from the ones who already provided ways, in that case one will probably be met with a lot of ire. (Not from me by the way)
Hypothetically, if our First Agent, Geana were to attend such a site under your protection and was not fired upon by its patrols I would be hard pressed if I were to deny your collective position.
However that would not benefit benefit me and my reservations about this initiative, or the purporter of the initiative.
What would the participents of this discussion be willing to give in exchange?
It is open to the public and no capsuleer can control de bahaviour of faction agents/ships, so the proposition under the current wording is not possible to be offered.
Capsuleers however can shoot any guarding Gallente navy ships at said site. Would you be willing to participate in it as a witness?
Form follows function. What do you want do we can better discuss how to get it? Neocon readings? Pictures? Going there for yourself?
Finding common ground and building bridges is only meaningful if there is honesty on both sides. Blaming blatantly, clear-cut Federal atrocities on pirates because âboth sides are against piratesâ is worthless and frankly insulting.
I donât think anyone would deny that the Federation has been benevolent to some people, hell- I am fairly certain the same can be said even of pirates themselves, Sansha notwithstanding. These are vast, interstellar organizations composed of countless individuals. Some subjective good can come from it. That doesnât erase the crimes perpetuated and committed by the institution at large though.
The truth is not always what we find convenient and comfortable. The truth sometimes hurts, but we should embrace it all the same.
For me, a formal pact to agree not to interfere in the construction of our respective Factionâs star-gates will suffice as evidenced by clean kill-mail count for the duration.
Navigating by State boarder patrols will be Geanaâs problem, one she has experience in dealing with. She has my and our Orderâs complete trust.
However, OP is yet to provide assurances that the Initiativâs drive will abide by throrogh FIO vetting. A guarantee I do no believe she is capable of providing.
I read words, but i am having difficulty in finding meaning.
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What are you even saying? What do the gate construction efforts have to do with anything? What pact are you offering and between whom?
You are making very little sense.
Fair to say. I will try to uncompact my meaning for you.
My understanding is that The New Dawn Initiative proposes to approach the Caldari State for the transfer of disaffected individuals to the Federation.
A number of commenters have objected on the grounds that of alleged malfeasence by Federal agencies.
I object on the grounds that these individuals can not be thoroughly vetted if trafficked via capsualeer transportation.
If this sticking point were to be resolved I propose to send an Agent from my independent monastic Order to publicly verify claims thus far made by partisan groups.
Yet to undertake this endeavour I would require an agreement that all parties that have taken part in this discussion do not effect any Faction stargate build project negatively.
This would require a cessation of all hostilities for the duration of the build projects.
Kill-mail monitoring would be the obvious measure for this standard.
I admit this is a tenuous offer but it is an offer I feel I can make.
If you are able to negotiate fairer terms my private mailbox is open to you.
I still donât see the relevance of the stargates at all, nor do I think anyone in this thread has any intention of disrupting them. If you want to send an agent to investigate the prison complexes, you are absolutely free to do so, at least as far as the present parties are concerned. I believe we have highlighted multiple times how you can go verify all our claims yourself.
I admit I was initially sceptical of the notion that the FIO could build facilities in Caldari high security space covertly then somehow not harden them against discovery. However it does seem plausible rogue elements of the Federation Navy acting without orders or sanction from their command might breach legal conduct.
That being said, without an investigation to establish facts and determine culpability of the case I suppose I never will know the truth nor discover who is truly responsible.