New Idea to Change the Ship Meta

How about making it so that ships in between frigs/destroyers and capital ships are useful again? IDK, it’s just an idea and PRETTY RADICAL by 2017 standards, but I feel like it could be fun to, say, PvP in something that wasn’t a cyno Prospect, stealth bomber, or dread.

Like really though, the current meta is seriously stale and boring. Please delete blackops bridges, take interdiction nullification away (from everything ideally, but most importantly interceptors), nerf T3Ds, buff all the garbage HACs a little, un-**** the warp speed of BS and BC, repeal the tracking enhancer nerf, buff autocannons, remove ancillary reppers (make active PvP tanks niche again!), etc etc etc.

Literally 99% of nullsec PvP now consists of either bridging dime-a-dozen bomber gangs onto unsuspecting targets caught by worthless cyno ships, or dropping caps and supers on stuff. You know who this is exciting for? Basically nobody at all. Sit on the blackops. Wait for someone to say, “bridge.” Click the button, click F1. Collect Rattlesnake / ratting carrier KM. OHHH. So emergent. Much epic. Many wows.

Your current PvP meta is atrocious. Give people a reason to fly a variety of hulls again, make them take gates instead of burning topes, and for god’s sake remove the taxiceptors that have got to be the most common ships in nullsec at this point. I want to live in a world like we had back in the first decade of EVE, where you could roam around and have catchable targets, where everything bigger than an inty traveling through space wasn’t cyno bait, and where if you wanted to kill a large target you had to put a little more effort in and risk more hardware then having one dude run around in a “mining frigate” and insta-blapping massive targets with a handful of 40m isk frigate hulls.

For god’s sake, do something. Fix this mess.

“Here’s a suggestion, fix it. I don’t know, just do it.”

Phenomenal suggestion, thanks for that. When do you remember blobs not having total dominion over nullsec and low? Because that was happening in 2008. Interceptors have been taxis since they received the non-target warp disruption immunity. You’re complaining about a lot of problems but I don’t see just one meta when I play, I see several depending on the groups involved and the location you’re in. I see things that have happened for over a decade and will continue because the core of the game was built that way.

I want you to ask yourself if you actually had anything to say here or if you just wanted to rant, because nobody cares about a rant. Save that for your blog.

They are working on an AF/HAC balance pass at the moment. But I have a few questions.

Can you back this up? Some zkill stats by nullsec region over time or somesuch? You can’t just spout of this kind of thing and expect to get taken seriously.

How would this make the PvP meta more favorable (to you)? I guess I’m asking for an explanation of the problem you have with charge-based active tanking.

Lastly, do you see this worthless rant post going anywhere? Because I only see it getting locked as all rant-posts do here.

Last I checked, ranting is against the terms for this forum.

And this steaming pile of… whatever this is… is most definitely a pointless rant.

This bit was good. +1

If you don’t like bombs, cap blobs, f1 monkeys and t3 fleets you may want to get out of null.

Did you read the post? I distinctly recall making several general suggestions to use as a starting point. I don’t recall complaining about blobbing. I could frankly care less about how ships are balanced with respect to fleet fights, because I find fleet fights in general completely unpalatable.

My issue is with people’s general level of risk exposure when conducting small-gang operations and daily nullsec life in general (gankers getting to use ships that combine trivial cost, extreme evasive potential, and incredible damage output; and residents and gankers alike rarely having to travel around in anything other than disposable frigate hulls). The meta really manages to achieve the worst possible set of outcomes: making money is super easy. Losing money requires an incredibly thick skull. PvE is more mindless and risk-free than ever (insofare as it’s trivially easy to replace even capital ratting losses!), and ganking is more mindless and risk-free than ever insofar as it’s essentially impossible for a defender to interdict or destroy an attacking gang (short of deploying smartbombing supercapitals or something, the best you can realistically hope for is blowing up enemy cyno ships when they travel around). Plus, even if an attacker loses an entire bomber gang they’ve lost what, maybe 1.5b isk? Even if you walk into a counter drop where the defenders pile in a bunch of officer-smartbomb Ragnaroks and grenade your entire gang (extremely unlikely), you’ve lost a couple of man-hours’ worth of ships maximum? The whole affair is just dull and inconsequential.

IDK why you’re of the opinion that overpowered tiny hulls are a core component of EVE gameplay (there was a long time period in the past when CCP managed to maintain a reasonable relationship between hull size and offensive / defensive potential of ships: if you wanted more of something, you had to bring a bigger, more expensive, easier-to-interdict hull to get it. Literally all the cancerous gimmicks of the Fozzie era could be reversed if there were anyone at CCP capable of appreciating the benefits of a varied ship ecosystem.

My, “I don’t care what you do, just fix it,” comment is merely my admission that CCP are unlikely to implement changes suggested by some user in a forum post. Luckily, they have a whole team of actual employees whose job it is to craft individual changes, test them, and implement them. The methods are up to them-- there’s little point to my investing a ton of time and effort theorycrafting specific changes, but they can’t know what people want if we don’t come here and ask them.

They do try and change meta by allowing Alphas fly more variants of ships.

Just wait

I’ve simply been watching two of the hottest nullsec small-gang PvP areas in the game and talking to the players that populate them and drive that content. I’ve observed operations from the perspectives of both attacker and defender and noticed almost identical strategies and tactics being employed by both sides despite numerous differences in the organizational schemes and capacities of the entities in play.

Goon space in the southwest is the most lived-in sov nullsec space anywhere in the game right now (look at the MER numbers if you don’t believe me), and it’s currently the darling ~content zone~ for the remaining fragments of about every “elite PvP” entity in the game. Looking at regional PvP activity as a “defender” (Or resident? I’m not particular about terminology) you see basically three types of PvP activity occurring:

  • Lone-wolf players flying covert T3 cruisers and pursuing Excavator drones (and the occasional AFK VNI if they find one)
  • Blackops / bomber / hunter gangs using Prospects, bombers, or very occasionally T3 cruisers to hunt ratters and cyno 20-35-man bomber gangs onto them (the bombers then either vaporize the target in 1-2 volleys for subcaps, or void-bomb capitals to nuke their capacitors and then evaporate them in 3-6 volleys)
  • Dread-bombs deployed on individual high-value targets (RIP: your ratting Hel)

In the northwest-- the other area I spend a lot of time, this time as an attacker-- you see… wait for it… literally the exact same behavior. Why? because it’s the only rational way to play the game right now. There’s little to no benefit to engaging in any other forms of PvP. That’s because ratting and mining sites are literally the only time nullsec players are exposed to risk anymore (ship and module changes, as well as structure and sov changes have all contributed to risk-reduction in nullsec in the last six years or so), and the only reason that players even tolerate THAT risk is because those PvE activities are so tremendously, absurdly lucrative that it hardly matters if you die doing them, as long as you don’t die CONSTANTLY.

I’ve also learned (first hand) the hard way why other forms of small-gang PvP are obsolete: there’s simply no customers. Go try and run a gatecamp in nullsec right now. Go try and kill your average ratter without a bomber fleet to back you up. Everyone travels in ships that are covert-cloaked, nullified, or both. Inties and yachts are everywhere. And that’s just the poors who have to travel by gates: anybody with any money (read: most of nullsec) just cynos about in capitals. Need to move goods? Cyno in a capital. Need to mine? Cyno around in a capital. Need to kill rats? Cyno around in a capital. People just move from tethered undock to tethered undock directly. Half the ships used for money-making (JFs and Rorqs) realistically don’t even have jump fatigue mechanics working against them (you only need to stay in one place for a few minutes in a JF or Rorq to exempt yourself from fatigue accrual entirely). What’s more, even if you catch one in a site, capital ships are extremely difficult to kill without tons of DPS. The obvious solution is to do exactly what people have been doing-- stop trying to catch people on the move, let them go about their economic pursuits uninterrupted, then randomly appear in a puff of smoke wielding 17,000 dps-worth of frigate hulls to instantly blap one dude.

The downside to this, of course, is that as I was saying earlier, with ISK-generation so fabulously easy, even blapping people’s ratting carriers feels like a non-achievement. How can you honestly be excited about killing a Nidhoggur when you know from your own experience that a single player can easily mine enough minerals to build another carrier in a single afternoon? A Rorqual in a day? And on top of that, most people’s investment in those kills consists of: spend 50m isk on a bomber, watch Netflix while your frigate sits tethered on an undock somewhere next to a Redeemer, click two buttons when someone yells on comms, then re-set.

The whole exercise is absurd from every angle. This game used to have stakes. Killing people used to be hard. As your reward, replacing losses used to be hard for the victim. Now everything is trivial: dank frags are dime-a-dozen, while the victims don’t really suffer any meaningful repercussions for their misjudgements. PvPers collect their capital killmail, the victim calmly buys another carrier off the market and is back making ISK hand-over-fist the next day.

I don’t know. It just feels like this game has completely lost its edge. The Fozzie era (yes, I’m aware that Fozzie himself is not responsible for every specific gameplay change-- I’m just referring to a general time-period of EVE’s development) has seen so many overpowered ships and structures handed to players that it feels like every imaginable task has become trivial. Logistics? Trivial. Money making? Trivial. Ganking? Trivial. There’s no sense of accomplishment in the game anymore. Supercap frags are routine. Small gangs bag-and-tag ten ratting carriers in a single night, and the only people actually investing any time or effort in the kills are the two or three people that actually go out and light the cynos. If I’m on the receiving end, it’s easier to just replace the ship and do the same thing again than it is to even bother learning something about the game or putting more effort into my situational awareness. I just don’t get it. Maybe I’m just a bitter vet, but I could’ve sworn the game was substantially more consequential and interesting back before Dominion sov, when players needed to work to make money, had to keep their gates clear so their citizens could travel around to get any work done, and attackers actually had to risk something more expensive than a frigate to make an impact.


This was a much more reasonable and informative post than your original one. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

You’re welcome. And for the record, I’m still out there flying interdictors, recons, and battlecruiser hulls. It’s not that it ~can’t~ be done, its just that for your trouble you tend to collect a handful of hauler and frigate killmails, some verbal abuse, and that’s about it. Mostly you watch interceptors flit back and forth between gates and lament the fact that you can’t smartbomb them to death without either input broadcasting (banned) or recruiting friends (unlikely because who can be bothered-- there’s a limited supply of people masochistic enough to camp gates these days). Meanwhile, your friends in the blackops gang have killed five carriers, and your friends down in the south have made billions of ISK. And you’re like, why am I even doing this?

If you’re smart, you join the blackops gang or go ratting. If you’re as stupid and nostalgic as I am, you keep blowing up people’s empty Bestowers and maybe an errant fleet-fit battlecruiser trying to slink home from a fight.

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See that? That is a much more productive way of getting your thoughts out rather than a huge rant.

Alright fair enough. I don’t get what you’re suggesting but I’ll concede you have made living in null sound like much more of a pain than was before I read those walls of text

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