As we have noticed with the black out, other people do not take over, they just leave.
Good. Let them leave.
Players can be replaced.
They must find W-space hard.
I like having EVE filled with other players, as interactions with those other players are the main reason I like playing this game.
Another blackout would therefore not be an option, as we have seen what happened last time: players simply left.
Blackout aside, I do think that we need some counter against local chat, which is why I came up with the suggestion in this thread.
I totally disgree with having chat appearance tied to ships.
Local is not system wide d-scan. The problem is misuse of local and this is not a fix for it. The real fix is delaying local, typing has consequences, such as appearing in local.
Whats the next silly idea? A chat invisibility module?
Why is local not similar to a system wide d-scan?
In practice, it is; anyone who enters a (non-wh/pochven) system connects to local chat and shows everyone else in that local chat that they are in system.
d-scan is range and direction controlled and limited. Also a tool that requires activity.
Local is for chat, if you donât type, you donât chat, thus not appear, hence delayed until you DO type.
I was not talking about the levers of the tool, but the results.
Youâre right though in the sense that local chat as tool requires no player input and cannot be played around, like d-scan can.
Which is in my opinion another reason local chat requires some counterplay, because currently there is simply nothing one can do to avoid local chat.
Pray their AWS chat server collapses often then, which it does.
We need to get this idea of local radar nerfed for everybody.
How about random weather dissruption of communications reverting it to delayed mode periodically randomly and in all regions, HS, LS and null.
Indeed, which is why I came up with this thread, to nerf the reliability and uncounterability of local chat.
If you had read my opening post I came up with this suggestion specifically to do this with a small targeted nerf in the form of a new game interaction and role for electronic attack frigates. I did that, because suggesting to go back to blackout will simply have the same disastrous effect on the game that it previously had.
And I disagree with the method of making it a ship role. Totally the wrong way imo.
Why is it the wrong way according to you?
And how would you make local less reliable as intel tool in a balanced way that does not go back to the emptiness of space during black out?
Chat is for chat, ships are for space.
The real solution is delaying local, everybody knows this. The problem is the rattle being thrown out of the pram by null blocks, immature on their part. Also highlights the problem they pose to the game and power CCP give them.
Also disband and dissolve the CSM.
The elephand is in the room, everybody is diverting their gaze. Dancing around the issue.
Okay, so you do not have a realistic alternative but insist on bringing the problematic black out back. Additionally you bring in unrelated spam of your opinion about the CSM for some reason.
I hope you donât mind if I stop responding to you, because discussions with you feel pointless.
Delay local.
Adapt or die. Isnât that what weâre told?
I am not responsible for your feelings.
Natural selection. I fully support this.
whatâs to counter ? local is equal for all players ; you see me , i see you .
interesting idea , but more of a solution looking for a problem .
anyway the null-sec botlords would never allow it .
- edit : maybe you could have this functionality in the form of a high-slot module , that nerfs your fitting and half the other abilities of your ship âŚ
The problem is there, but this is not the solution, the solution is to only appear in chat when chatting in local.
The notion of a chat invisibility ship/module is ludicrious and just daft imo.
The problem here is immature players with too much power in null that throw their toys out of the pram when the real solution is applied.
We have the solution in w-space, it works.
The fix is for the chat system, not the ship/module system.
They have a counter to delayed chat, itâs called d-scan.
If you want a middle ground solution, then environmental effects is a way, not ship effects. That way it affects everybody in the system, not specific ships. We have a precedent for this already, metaliminal storms so itâs a better fit for the game imo.
Also, disband and dissolve the CSM.
Well, the âseeingâ part is what I intend to counter.
The symmetry (you see me, I see you) doesnât solve the problem that once youâre seen people can dock up immediately and very often will. It is therefore impossible to fly around unseen by local chat.
Flying around unseen by local chat is what Iâm trying to make possible.
However, the other side of the story is that people really donât like it when people fly around unseen. As we have seen in the black out phase, people just stopped playing because null sec with gates and the easy unrestricted movement of fleets is not the same as a wormhole space with mass restrictions and where cynos are disallowed, or pochven with fleet size restrictions where cynos again are disallowed. Null sec allows very easy travel and easy quick escalation of conflicts, which in combination with a delayed local means people will stop flying in that space.
When people massively stop playing because of a delayed local, it isnât a matter of âharden upâ anymore, it is a problem for the game. The game requires people to be in space in order for it to be fun and allow interaction. When Iâm hunting I want people to be out in space, as that gameplay is pointless without ships in space.
So while I do wish to have something that can counter local chat, I do not wish to go back to a situation that was threatening for the existence of the game, which blackout was.
The suggestion in this thread is meant to add a little bit of extra risk to relying on local chat, without making it impossible to rely on local chat.
The problem is controversial, as some people do not want risk at all, while others would want black out and have anyone out in space lose their ship any time a roaming group stumbles upon them.
Personally I think the problem with local is that it is too safe in itâs current version, but it is hard to come up with a way to make local less reliable without making it too easy to hunt players in null.
I do occasionally hunt in null, mostly in groups but did some solo, and do know what kind of changes would make it too easy. Delayed local from black out for example would make it far too easy.
For that reason Iâm suggesting this ability to avoid local not as a module, but as a ship bonus for a ship type that is unable to cloak and unable to be a threat on itâs own.
That could work, but would be less predictable and harder to balance.
A big benefit of having this bonus on one specific ship hull type is that anyone who sees such a ship on d-scan knows that there is an âunseenâ ship in local, someone who may be sneaking around.
If any ship could fit such a module, players wouldnât be able to tell from their d-scan whether the ship on d-scan belongs to someone not in local.
Additionally, a T3C, even with nerfed fitting and reduced abilities may be powerful enough to deal with weaker targets while solo hunting, which is something I would like to avoid this ability to be used for.
Youâre strenghening and giving legitimacy to having chat as a gameplay feature, we want to remove that legitimacy, delaying (even with random metaliminal storm effects) chat would do that better imo and without discrimination to ships/players.
Thatâs the problem with your solution compared to delaying. Your solution has unintended consequences and the opposite effect.
It seems we agree that local chat is a gameplay feature as it is now and it also seems we agree that this is problematic.
Many gameplay elements to interact with other players were designed as gameplay element and as such have counter options. D-scan, the overview, probe signals, they all are gameplay elements that have other gameplay elements that interact with it. Recons that can avoid d-scan, sensor strength that makes it harder to get probed, cloaks which hide you from the overview⌠these are all balanced gameplay elements with strengths and weaknesses.
Local chat isnât designed as gameplay element with strengths and weaknesses. Yet in practice it is a gameplay element that everyone uses as a tool to spot who else is in system with them.
Like you, I would like there to be less legitimacy for local chat as a gameplay feature.
Over time, I have thought of and discussed different ways to deal with local chat, ways to change it in such a way that it is no longer the infallible (as long as the chat server is working) instant intel tool that it is now.
Some of such ideas:
- small delay on local chat â People would connect to local chat only after breaking gate cloak, or after a short timed delay.
- module/ship to ignore local chat â see this thread
- full delay on local chat â blackout, weâve seen what happens: people stop playing. This isnât possible in a part of space with cynos and quick unlimited escalations of conflicts. It works in Pochven and WH space, but there fleets are limited by mass or site/filament size and cannot cyno around. And in WH space you can close all entries, unlike in NS.
I agree that the second point of these three gives legitimacy to local chat as gameplay feature, unlike the other two options, but to me it seems the role of local chat isnât going anywhere, so we might as well make it a gameplay element with strengths and weaknesses by introducing a weakness.
The third idea has been tried already and isnât feasible. The first idea could still work and I would support such a change, but I personally prefer the hull bonus to electronic attack frigates that I suggested in this thread.
The problem of removing local chat temporarily with random metaliminal storm effects is that it has the same effect as a random blackout: people just stop doing things in space in that part of space while the storm is out. And outside the storms people would still be able to rely on local chat as ever.
So not only would a metaliminal storm not fix the issue Iâm trying to address, the places where it âfixesâ it, it just results in temporarily no people in space to shoot which is the opposite of what Iâm trying to accomplish.
Lastly - not that I mind about giving local chat legitimacy, but you do - when local chat becomes part of the list of gameplay features that metaliminal storms affect, youâre giving it the legitimacy youâre trying to avoid.