indeed and in the summer it cost twice as much in cooling as in computations.
lol.
that’s a drop
This won’t.
What you don’t get is, there is an increase in the price of energies. Electricity, gas, petrol.
I don’t think you have an idea of what is an actual data center and the actual cost of such. I , on the other side, do. And the costs are, like often, hidden.
And yes, when I say CRAC is more than half the running cost, it’s from professional experience. Though 2KW is nothing.
Actually no, last summer I was able to keep all my rx 6600 around 50 to 55 Celsius. I was able to direct most of the heat out the window with my makeshift skills that annoy my mrs, we managed to get through summer without a problem and earn the optimal in crypto. I will make sure I replace my older 2017 graphics cards with newer rx 6600’s though, the few rx 580’s I still have do run a little hot and loud.
Call it what ever you like, the facts still remain that concepts like cryptocurrencies require lots of computational power in order to generate the digital currency, It just isn’t practical to build a mega structure that houses the computational power for generating crypto. The crypto concept involves millions of computers hashing away solving complex math so it was always destined to be a system which could only be shared around the world. So effectively each miner is a tiny data center which all the other miners depend on.
Also, slightly off topic there is a new concept from a company called SCPrime. Their plan is to recruit people to build a suitable SSD storage computer in their home and let them have access to the storage space. SCPrime will then sell your storage space to business customers and pay you in their digital currency ScP, obviously they plan to get lots of people on board. Anyway my point is instead of having to find the money to build a data centre they have instead chosen to distribute storage over thousands of virtual computers so effectively you have lots of mini data centers.
That’s not how it works.
If you consume 2KW, then you need to extract 2KW from your room. Having a higher influx temperature only means you can use more outside’s air but at the price of blowing in more air. Which is okay if you have low power (2kW is very low)
And of course the probability of failure increase with temperature. Which means, increases the operating costs.
Forcing the extraction of air from a room (heat pump) is an operation that has lower than 50% efficiency, that means you consume more energy to extract the heat than what you extract ( actually it’s not the CRAC but the climate control system ). So now you can let wind do the job, but that’s only because you have no contractual uptime. Otherwise you can’t let the wind decide when it’s okay to cool you r datacenter.
I do not intend to debate your response to this, if any, and the emphasis on the quotation is mine, for anybody reading. I’m just asking a question to read an answer that could possibly surprise me with something I have not already considered.
As I understand it, This would play directly into Shipwreck’s point in that people who are cashing out are getting the benefits, while people who retain the digital currency are going to be left holding the (digital) bag eventually when there’s no more ‘real’ money to remove from the system. It seems logical to conclude if a miner believes in the value and staying power of bitcoin they would have a preference to retain at least some significant portion the bitcoin as an investment over selling it for a traditional currency.
Does bitcoin have value besides selling it to people for traditional currency? Does bitcoin provide value to the common person who’s not interested in producing it for the sake of exchanging it at a future date for traditional currency? If so, what are the benefits and who is the beneficiary? Are you doing anything with bitcoin besides selling it for a traditional currency? If so, what do you do with bitcoin? If not, then what factors led you to pass up the opportunity to exploit bitcoin’s intrinsic value?
Bitcoin is just a currency. Its value is that it can buy real world goods. Even some countries already accept it as legal tender and where they don’t, you can convert it into your local currency. It’s a good thing to have because it’ll help provide opportunity for work and prosperity where it may otherwise not be present. Remember, bitcoins aren’t really mined. They’re more or less earned by processing hidden transactions using a SHA-256 algorithm which is a member of the SHA-2 cryptographic hash functions that was developed by the NSA. I have been making some bitcoin without mining. Earning it even. Eventually, I intend to cash out.
In a way, what’s really happening is that business and private enterprises are offloading their work unto a networked cloud of personal user’s hardware to do their work for them so that they can save money on hardware and personnel when it comes to mining anyway. I’d do it but I only have my one pc and graphics card and I use it for other things like gaming…
This is correct, currently I only sell quickly because I want to buy another GPU or pay some other bills but yes once I get to a certain size the goal will be to retain a large portion for future investment. The only reason I made that point is to show that it can be difficult to lose money if your are approaching crypto with a mining or generating goal, and not a series of direct purchases of crypto involving tens of thousands of pounds/dollars.
Honestly even direct purchases of bitcoin with pounds or dollars are difficult to lose money on, If anyone tells you they lost all their money on specific Bitcoin what they really mean is they invested a sum of real cash into it, the value of bitcoin went down and then they sold all their bitcoin without waiting for the value to go back up.
Yes, it has a value on stock markets, so it can be traded like any other commodity, many retailers now accept bitcoin for goods and services. If you are the owner of 1 Bitcoin then it’s cash value is about £30k currently. or it can get you £30k worth of goods/services because the business/person you give it to can then exchange it for cash. It is also anonymous so no one can ever know who owns what bitcoin,
Also Bitcoin is a very cheap money transfer network.
So in general it is just a currency really where anonymity is one of its advantages or disadvantages depending on perspective. It has a high value vs other currencies, People will pay you in bitcoin to remotely use your hardware to mine another crypto currency called Etherium.
So a UK retailer Scan.co.uk now accepts bitcoin, so…I don’t even have to convert my bitcoin to physical cash now, I can buy new GPU’s and other hardware using bitcoin, because it seems the folks at Scan Computers want to hold bitcoin and sell it for physical money at a later date when it’s worth more perhaps.
If my landlord or mortgage company said we accept bitcoin then I might well pay them in bitcoin. If I get to the point where I have Bitcoin where I don’t need to spend then yes for sure I will put it in a cold wallet and store it for investment in the future.
So no I haven’t passed up the intrinsic value of Bitcoin I am in fact using it just like I would any physical type of currency used in my country.
Also if we look at the way the world is going computer chips are hard to come by so anything like a GPU will hold its value well over the coming years so using Bitcoin or real cash to purchase hardware seems to be just as good as an investment in bitcoin.
I’m fully aware of mining. And the fact that you mine your crypto still doesn’t mean that it’s not a greater full scam. The question is not how you personally interact with or benefit from crypto, but whether or not people being convinced to buy overpriced assets by the hope that they can sell it to a greater fool later for more money?
Like, you get that right? You wouldn’t be able to sell your mined crypto for anything if no one put money into the system by buying crypto. And there are people who get into MLM scams early, and who make money, that are then held up by the con creators as shining examples to other marks, in order to try to convince them that they should buy in or double down.
So, the existence of some people benefiting from crypto, or some people not putting any money directly into the system, is not sufficient evidence to refute that it is a greater fool scam. You have to show people are not being tricked into buying overpriced assets. This is why I’m pushing so hard on the value of crypto as a currency. If it is worthless as a currency, and only has value for speculation and crime, which has been asserted, that’s rather damning evidence.
I don’t know if this is a communication error, you’ve bought into the BS yourself, or if you’re intentionally trying to push the conversation away from the core issue at hand, but, no I don’t think you’re addressing the issues leveled at crypto.
And this part, isn’t an opinion, but a fact -you have not answered my specific questions that I have asked (instead opting to bring up other things, like how mining keeps old computers from becoming e-waste, or how people in poor countries are allegedly benefiting [by the way, this is also a disputed claim]). But, you have at least acknowledged one of my questions. So, I guess that’s a good start.
As, for me, my feelings toward crypto (not NFT’s) were slightly positive up until recently. I had several reasons for this, but here is one -I liked the idea of DTube. Of course, a few things I like is how there are no humans tweaking algorithms to benefit big creators (i.e. movie studios and TV networks), nor have they implemented a copyright enforcement mechanism that is so unbalanced in favor of copyright holders that bad actors regularly abuse them. However, those are choices that any video sharing platform can make, regardless of the tech that they are built on. So, the big selling point of DTube, that helped to make me feel positivity towards crypto was the fact that DTube videos were uncensorable. Of course, countries can still block access to the site, but there are ways around firewalls, and the videos can never be removed -or so I assumed. I am now questioning the validity of the claim, and a cursory search turned up no details on how it works, or whether or not it is as uncensorable as they claim.
But I digress. I guess what I’m trying to say, is that I am not a never-crpyto-er. I wasn’t opposed to crypto from the start, or bitter because “I missed out.” In fact, up until recently, I had somewhat positive feelings towards crypto. Moreover, I am someone who is capable of changing their mind when presented with new evidence. So, it would certainly be an uphill battle, but I am available to be persuaded.
Anyway, I’ve seen you’ve written more, but I haven’t gotten to it yet. I am, however, interested in continuing this conversation, so I’ll try not to keep you waiting too long.
Isn’t the first amount of drugs free? That’s how it generally works, draw them in with one free line… eh… PC, start to mine (costing electricity) then saying “ok, that is not profitable… BUT if you INVEST a little so I can get out then…” 
I can’t access that page, lolz. I guess they don’t ship to France… and are very afraid, even more than amazon or other that they are targetted by ‘not understanding customers’.
I can get the reviews page which has a 2.5 out of 5 for score… hmmm… sounds legit.
However, they do ship internationally. So in one way bitcoin saved this failing business from going under. But if bitcoin gets more popular, they will be out of business.
I don’t think you understand how economies work. Show me a country with no poor people.
Unites States, Russia and Nigeria are also in your opinion the richest populations as they embraced Bitcoin, please elaborate on this. For free because I can’t pay it, I’m “Bitcoin poor”.
Bitoin is banned here :
Algeria, Bangladesh, China, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Nepal, Qatar, Tunisia.
Bitcoin has a legal framework here (considered property):
Denmark, France, Germany, Iceland, Japan, Mexico, Spain, United Kingdom,
Bitcoin is legal tender here:
El Salvador
I think the list isn’t up to date as in the Netherlands people pay ownership taxes on bitcoin.
IF. But how will you buy new CPU’s then? From what you typed- but I can be mistaken- you buy new CPUs with Bitoin gains + the selling of the old card.
I agree with that, Bitcoin will always have a certain value, a lot of accounts are locked to never be opened. Those bitcoin wallets with “millions of real money” will never be recovered. This is in fact one of the good things of Bitcoin as it’s some kind of value that won’t go away.
Sorry for the multiple posting but my browser crashed when clicking that scam… eh scan… dot co dot uk page.
I know right! Everything is behind a paywall, and “THE EBIL GUVERNMENTZ” has their agents like everywhere.
One modern Bitcoin mining machine (commonly known as an ASIC), like the Whatsminer M20S, generates around $8 in Bitcoin revenue every day.
A 57TH/s version of the MicroBT Whatsminer M20S is also available on Sesterce for a 2,085 USD price.
in 260 days it’s back? No, electricity needs to be paid too.
I look it up on a bitcoin site : 952.56 kWh per month x .0678 cents per kWh = $64.58 (which has a disclaimer about other costs and taxes)
I look it up on a commercial energy provider site : ** cents per kilowatt-hour**.
952.56 kWh per month x 10.42 cents on average per kWh = $9.925,67
***( Hawaii has the highest average electricity rate of 30.55 cents per kilowatt-hour. Louisiana has the lowest average electricity rate of 7.01cents per kilowatt-hour.)
So in theory it might make you money but in reality it costs you money. Unless you are a company that can make a deal with the electricity company to get large amounts at discounted prices.
Why are Bitcoin Billionaires always saying everyone will get rich with it? I want proof, then we can present this data and get everyone in on it in the world and EVERYONE will be rich. Right?
PS: When will Hilmar announce NFT’s on EVE-ONLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCcwn6bGUtU 
Well, the NYX didn’t really go good, but I’m sure the NFT NYX will be much easier to produce… https://twitter.com/eveonline/status/1001969030180364288
LOL, I’m not ready for ASIC miners yet, that’s for the big boys. The asic’s can mine bitcoin directly, while GPU’s mine most other crypto currencies. The Whatsminer M20S looks ok actually, most of the ASIC are very high powered some even go up to 3000 kwh. I assume that all ASIC manufacturers are working overtime to make any new version use less electric.
The only costs I know of are, Hardware, electric, mining pool, they are starting to tax crypto earnings so over the next year or so I expect to see more news about taxes.
Every business plan seems to have an operating cost, Mining is great because the costs are clear and many people just do it from their shed or garage and directly pay for electricians to verify that it’s safe.
Lets say I wanted to be an Uber driver, then the costs become, Car, Fuel, Maintenance, Taxes, Licence fees, I would buy/lease my Toyota Prius for about £150 per week which is quite high. So it seems mining/generating crypto has become cheaper to set up than most other self employed type jobs.
Normally I use Ebuyer.com, Scan.co…uk do have some great deals, I have brought 2 Corsair HX850 PSU’s from them and some other CPU’s leads and PCI-e cables. They are a good supplier for the UK customer to be fair.
Just recently, I found it is possible to by a pci-e controller type device, so I can now use a £40 motherboard to connect up to 8 GPU’s if the motherboard only has 2 or 3 pci-e slot. Prior to this I was buying specialist mining motherboads for about £300 to £500 each which featured 13 Pci-e slots. I have a couple of old Dell and HP desktops so I will try to put them to work over the coming weeks.
The pci-e controller plugs into a pci-e slot (a x 1 speed pci-e port is fine) then you plug 4 USB cables from the gpu risers into the controller and it works!
Ok, this is a good start.
(1) Hardware basis (fixed cost, let’s assume we replace the PC or video card every 3 to 5 years).
Could you give us an estimate -even a link to that site- on how much that cost.
Now we need to also calculate the selling and buying of cards - I assume you sell and buy in crypto (with datestamp as it’s volatility exceeds any know curency even of african countries) but a USD or pound value is the preferred to give bitcoin-impaired people like me an insight of the cost.
I just need some estimate not an exact monetary overview of your “industrial activities”. That way we can map the ROI as most of that is reinvested in newer better cards to keep up with the “10 minute calculation mark”.
(2) Electricity
I assume you have invested in an electricity counter so you can separate your washing machine from your bitcoin mining costs? And you keep a monthly record on those expenses?
(3) Mining pool fee
Every pool is different … hmm. But okay, Slush Pool -I guess because the website doens’t really explain it clearly, just tells you “it’s the best thing every and you should join it” They offer a standard 2% fee, which you share with other miners. There’s a 0.0002 Bitcoin (8.9 USD) threshold, which means once you reach this sum, the platform automatically sends the earnings to your account.
Yes, but there is supposed to be a profit, or when you operate at a loss some form of tax break where you mine in loss for a certain amount to reduce your company’s taxes. However the latter will make the tax company frown and ask you why you keep on pursuing that loss year after year; a business is supposed to make a profit or it will be closed down.
That aside , you misunderstood what I said there, I said the income is much lower than the costs from what I calculated quickly. Which isn’t a very good business plan… in France, I’m not a connoisseur of business practices in the United Kingdom though.
The whole idea of my weird questions and debate is “How can we make this into a microbusiness, which the ‘average citizen’ can use as a second job or at least a way to pay for rent/food/basic quality of life items”. This will not be an easy exercise.
Yes, To make a start with hardware purchase off top of my head the prices are as follows,
PSU Corsair Platinum - 10 year guarantee - £160 (you’ll need 2 of these)
Mining Frame to fit 6 gpu’s - £150
Motherboard £99
CPU - £75
RAM - £40
CPU FAN - £12
1 x RX 6600 XT GPU - £500 (6 of these are £3,000)
PCI-e risers/Cables/Dual PSU Connector - £80
The other great thing is there are buy now pay later companies like Klarna in the UK. So I can buy a £500 GPU, pay £166 straight away, another £166 30 days later, then the final £166 60 days later, this will give you time to earn money with your GPU to contribute to the payments.
An RX 6600 XT currently generates about £0.80 to £1 per day with electric costing £0.20 to £0.30 per day. so profit with the current bitcoin price is around £0.50 to £0.60 per day. If Bitcoin price is £50k each then Profit is around £1.40 per day for each RX 6600 XT you have.
So if you get the 6 gpu rig I speak of, you should start at around £3 per day profit based on current bitcoin price. Which is £90 per month profit. So your ROI will be 30 months based on current bitcoin price. with a bitcoin price of £50k you would be looking at a 14 to 15 month ROI.
It will take some time to answer your questions I will update as I’m doing other stuff.
First off all, I wanted to say that I do get the impression that you are not a scammer, and that you are being honest with me. Moreover, I have been enjoying our discussion so far. Of course, I suspect that we’re going to disagree on an issue or two, but hopefully you’re enjoying the discussion as well.
Okay, with that out of the way, yes, our current socioeconomic systems suck. Don’t need to convince me that there is a problem. What I need convincing on is whether or not crypto is the solution.
Yeah, I had to address this one -I think this idea puts way to much faith into mankind. I mean, people in the real world ■■■■ each other over for a buck all the time. So, I have absolutely zero doubt that there aren’t crypto bros who wont do the same thing if given the opportunity -especially considering how many scammers have been attracted to the space. So, I think it is a mistake to assume that those with power to leverage in space will not leverage that power in a way that benefits themselves, at the expense of others. Now, that is not to say that protections against abuses of power can’t be put into place. But, from what I gather, those protections do not currently exist.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tragedy-of-the-commons.asp
Amazing post with some amazing questions I’m really excited about answering, lol, were going to be here a long time as there is a lot to get through. I have to cook and do chores so I will reply to you in bits here and there.
USD is controlled by the fed and people whose names you hardly see in the news
Also, the tragedy of there only being one currency that a government controls is that if they decide they want to increase taxes to unsustainable levels they will and enforce their rules with lethality or the threat thereof. Also, you put down regular people about economics but our governments with the “best experts” still can’t manage their own budgets and constantly devalue their own currency with debt. The USA alone has 30 trillion dollars of debt. Most countries already operate from a central bank. The federal reserve is that for America.