yeah, that’s called playing the game.
Taking preventive measures against an opponent you don’t even know is present ?
The ■■■■ are you even talking about ?
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The same measures you take against other covops cloaked ships that warp to you?
Or are you saying you’re not using local chat, intel chat and dscan to keep an eye on the cloaky ships that sneak around trying to get you?
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There is no local in WHs.
There are no intelchats in WHs.
You cannot see cloaked ships on DScan and you can’t survey all entries with live scouts all the time, especially as a numbers-limited small to medium group. Seeing them sneak in would be pure luck and the only ‘safety measure’ is blueballing opponents, nanokite or masslogi. Yeah, nice way motivating people to take more brawls.
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If you don’t have hole control, don’t PVE then!
What is unbalanced are ships that can’t die unless you can N+1 them. Having counters is good. These Breacher pods do have counters, a Damnation with Logi support does not.
Why are you trolling? Really, why are you doing this? Are you playing dumb? I have explicitly explained that it’s NOT PvE ships that are in danger of this mechanic! No PvE fleet in WHs care for breacher Pods, these ships farm with low buffer / high rep setups, breacherpods barely affect them. And usually you are rolled in, have critted the entries or fly permaaligned and or have passive scouts at open holes that report activations or an extraction boosher with you. Breacherpods are ZERO threatening to farmers.
Ok, now I am sure you are trolling.
ECM to jam them, rangedamps if they are far, scanresodamps and fast targetswitches if they are close, neuts, booshers to separate them, alphadoctrines to kill targets before reps go through, Vindiwebs+paints to apply on them… you have PLENTY of choices already. And all of them are working fine.
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ECM have a tough time landing on Logi with ECCM scripts, ends up requiring more pilots than the otherside, Range damps don’t really do anything when they are clumped up, and Applying on Logi or Damnation isn’t an issue with high resists. Breacher Pods have a chance of going through while having equal numbers.
Just because you disagree with someone, doesn’t mean they are a troll. This is a meta change that benefits smaller, more skilled groups than it does for blobs. Ofc all those who blob are going to screech.
no it does not.
You hope it will benefit you because you are full of spite after having your butt kicked by an absolution compo.
You have your hopes too high.
You are right that it will make damnations worse. But another ship without armor bonus will take its role.
Prepare yourself for the next buttkick round.
Well I tried having a discussion, but if you all want to be closed minded and make things up, I’ll just leave you be. People where able to work their way around lancers, they will find a way around SCARABs.
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Yes, they will. By avoiding more fights if they aren’t the clearly superior side, by bringing even more logi or by kiting even more. It will be used to break smaller and tougher gangs even faster, with less losses and with more ease. More curbstomping, less skill requirement.
This whole topic could be funny if it wasn’t so sad… any and all arguments based on hard, provable facts are blatantly ignored, while diffuse assumptions and even straight wrong statements are made to somehow justify this nonsense. Your try to somehow aim on PvE situations, which are obviously affected the least, is the best example.
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But you’re not trying to discuss when claiming that it will be good.
You’re making up a specific example which you pretend is OP and can only be nerfed by using this module.
What numbers are you giving ? Nothing. Just “it’s OP and will not be”.
Try to at least have some sincerity in your argument.
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How did this discussion suddenly go to WHs only?
Even in wormholes I can imagine there are ways to minimise the chance to get attacked by cloakies, but I wasn’t talking about wormholes.
In any part of space you already have to deal with cloaky ships somehow and can do so. These new ships won’t be different in that way, for example they’ve got a targeting delay like most other cloakies, show up on dscan when they’re taking gates, cannot warp to certain places without probes, etc.
literally the question I asked
Maybe because you justified the “balance” of this new system because the opponent has so many “measures” he can take agains them and I proved you with a simple example that you are wrong?
And on top of that you confirm what I say all the time: From the Pro-Pod side comes not a single argument that hasn’t been debunked already, it’s just diffuse assumptions:
That basically translates 1:1 to “I have no idea!”. And that summarizes the topic pretty well. All arguments speak against this mechanic. It isn’t needed. It isn’t balanced. It isn’t even fun, it frustrates the target by leaving him no way to counter this damage. Not with overheating, not with speed, not with sig, not with range, not with breaking the tackle and warping away. He can just do docking. It’s hilarious. It hurts people for skilling. It hurts people for tanking their ships. It hurts even their fleetmates for skilling and tanking their ships because those now have to rep more on them. Its unnessessary complex for the sake o being “new and fancy”. It alienates casualplayers even further which increases the base problem EVE has (aka being so vast and complex that new players are actually drowned in things to learn and all the exceptions to the things they think they know). Which make them unwilling to dive in deeper or stay after the first experiences). And this isn’t “doomsaying”. It’s a FACT that EVE lost tenthousands of players over the last years, mostly because of incredibly bad design decisions. And this is another brick in that wall.
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I really have to quote this, because it shows your lack of mechanical and/or tactical knowledge.
- ECM doesn’t need to make logis permablind, it is enough to get random jams every once in a while that distract them from focusing reps and forces them to re-establish their capchain, which costs attention and time and enables you to break targets. Or in case of a Zarmazd, it despools them. A single anti-amarr fitted ECM-Tengu, Falcon, Rook, Widow or Scorpion can reliably take out one Guardian (yes, thats a ship that isn’t cloaked, so you actually can prepare for it) from the equation. That doesn’t mean that every jam attempt needs to go through. It is enough to keep it jammed 50% of the time, because these seconds where it can’t rep + the time it needs to relock + the time it needs to actually cycle the RRs is the time you break targets.
- I explicitly said that you DON’T rangedamp when they are close. You rangedamp them if they try to rep from AFAR. It’s an easy concept. If they are “clumped up” you scanreso-damp them, making them lock 20 or even 30 seconds on a target. Which means you can switch targets quickly, produce a lot of enemy broadcasting and in the end the Logis can’t lock the real primary on which you stay (and overheat) quick enough and it dies.
- Application and Resists are two completely different things. Application means to maximize your POTENTIAL by making sure the weapon-damage calculation formulae can’t be used by them to decrease your hit-quality, for example by being too fast or too small. Webs+Paints can remove this benefit of Logistics (having a small signature, being pretty fast with a propmod), allowing your ships to hit them wit their maximum possible damage. Resist play absolutely no role in that, because 60.000ehp are 60.000ehp and if you pump up a Guardian in Sig like a Battlecruiser and slow it down to the speed of a Battlecruiser, it will simply go down as fast as a simple T1 Battlecruiser, because the damage formulae don’t care for what the initial ship type is or if their ehP come from rawHP or resistances. And a T1 battlecruiser is a pretty weak target, thats why Guardians melt like snowballs if you web+paint them while your fleet runs your guns on them.
Same goes for Neuts, 2 Curses easily break a Guardian Pair with capchain, and can TD/GD opponents. Logis that don’t capchain (Zarmazd, Scimi) are dead in the water even earlier. If not a Curse, Armageddons or Bhaalgorns can do the same. And last but not least, you ignored (intentionally) the Command Destroyers. Any Logis who are “clumped up” in the middle of the fleet eat the full damage and neut pressure of all your ships, and if they are far away, combatscan, warp a Boosher on them, scramble one and jump the others away, -1 Logi for them.
So, pretty please don’t act as if this “Breacher Pod” mechanic could solve a “problem” that currently has no counter. There are plenty of counters. And there isn’t even a “problem” with Logis. Each Logipilot removes a potential chunk of DPS from your fleet (because he could have flown a Damagedealer instead) and can be taken out if the opponent has only a few anti-logi ships with him. Thats a complete other leage than a cloakywarping-bridgeable-resistanceignoring-hpscaling-upto2000dps Battlecruiser.
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No, it was meant as a rhetorical question about how you deal with cloaky threats today without going all the way into detail with how I do it.
After all, these new ships cannot do more tricks than regular covops ships can do, they only have a new type of weapon.
As you are interpreting this the wrong way, let’s go into detail: how do you deal with cloaky threats today?
In null sec it’s not hard:
- names appear in local
- ship type appears on dscan the moment they enter or leave your system through a gate in dscan range, even for cloaky ships
- names, locations and ship types appear in intel chat
- ship type and fit can with surprisingly high accuracy be found on zkillboard
While sometimes you won’t yet know what a neutral or hostile player is flying, it’s very often known. And you know whether they’re scouting +1 of a group, whether they’ve got a cyno (and how many people they generally bring on kills), whether they’re trying to hunt solo.
This means you as player can adapt your strategy to what they’re doing.
Is it a scout? Just tether for a minute and they’ll quickly move along, those fleets speed through space looking for players who aren’t paying attention or are stuck in bastion.
Is it a solo cloaky? Work together with your group’s standing fleet to bait them and get them killed.
Is it a cloaky cyno? If they’re actively hunting he’ll be like the scout - moving along as it’s a waste of time for their fleet elsewhere to stay in one system to wait when there are plenty of easy targets elsewhere. If they’re part of a cloaky camping campaign and waiting in one system, see if you can find who they drop and if you can counterdrop it, or see if you can catch them with an observatory when they’re AFK.
So there you have it, ways I deal with cloaky ships.
This new ship is just going to be yet another cloaky ship. They’ll probably not be the cloaky camper, but will either be the solo hunter or be one of the ships to come through the covert cyno.
To deal with them you either bait the solo hunter like you would bait other solo hunters by putting a surprising amount of defences, scram, point and/or web on your ratting ship and having a few people nearby to jump in and kill the thing.
Or just pay attention and warp away in the ~7 seconds it takes to decloak and lock your ship. It has the regular decloak targeting delay and isn’t a frigate with high sensor strength either. The ‘1k dps’ battlecruiser will probably take even longer than that.
TL;DR: There are plenty of ways to deal with spooky cloaky ships that also apply to this new ship.
removing 75% of the target HP is actually a pretty new “trick”.
You don’t.
All your next claims are useless. You actually don’t deal with the cloaky threats.
What you prepare to deal with, is what they can bridge.
And if it’s not cloaked anymore, it’s not a cloaky threat : it’s a normal threat.
Even if you set up traps, they may not be actually present, and you wasted your time for nothing.
That’s exactly why people complain about the cloaky campers : they don’t have to do anything, they are still a threat you can’t deal with.
That’s plain BS.
People are not bots, they can’t pay attention for long period of time to have <1s reaction time.
And large ships have more than 10s align .
Even bots with instant reaction time can be caught.
Stop your bot apology.
Additional part :
How null deals with cloaky :
- have pod bot at EACH gate that register all activity (OCR on the overview) and send it to a central agency system. When the pod is killed, it just undock the structure and warp back to its bookmark.
- every rating player must have an alt in standing fleet, with squads at each gate / system . squads containing insta locker (<1s), structure manner to decloak, cloaked huggin/curse to handle bigger threat.
- also there must be a scanner in each system to scan down new sigs and collapse WH fast. The eyes can do the signature detection, and exploration bots can scan and save them.
- of course, don’t rat out of cap umbrella. Have cyno in each system.
This effectively neuters cloaky activity. Bots are rampant in the game because YOU are making them required with your shitty arguments of “if you don’t react faster than a bot then you deserve your loss”. YOU are ruining the game with your BS.
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I see all sorts of excuses why you cannot do anything against these new ships and that they are OP.
I’ve mentioned a bunch of things you could do to deal with cloaky ships.
So either you keep complaining how you’re a victim or use the tools you’re given to play in this sandbox.
I very much doubt that these new ships will bridge. They can bridge and will be bridged in, but I see no feature that makes these new ships a choice to light a cyno.
They’re expensive, have a targeting delay, have no benefit of their web resistance while pinned down during cyno, and I expect them to have less EHP than T3Cs.
They may be used as solo cloaky ships or be bridged in.
In case you get caught by a cloaky and they bridge in a fleet of bombers, blopses and one of these new ships it doesn’t really matter how strong their attack is: you’re probably dead anyway.
In case of a solo pilot, well you can bait them in the right fit, maybe fight them even.
You didn’t read what I wrote, it seems.
Setting a trap is what you could do against an active cloaky.
While it can be hard to tell the difference between active and AFK cloaky campers, the main way to recognise active cloaky hunters is if they’re travelling through space, hopping from system to system looking for targets to kill. You can see in zkillboard who they’re hunting for, even see their fleet comp if they have dropped on someone already in this session. You can check their staging system (locator agents) and see if the fleet is logged in or that they’re semi-afk.
AFK cloakies can be recognised if they’ve been in system for an hour or more, not showing themselves, and they don’t react to a mobile observatory. If they are AFK too long this allows you to kill them.
People complain about cloaky campers because they never attempted to deal with it, throw their hands in the air and call it unfair.
Try using the tools you have.
I’m not expecting people to always be able to react in less than a second.
I expect people to be able to look at local chat twice a minute. And if they notice that a new name showed up in local in the last 30 seconds, to align and pay attention until a ship arrives on grid or dscan. And then I expect you to warp away in less than a second, unless the name moves on to the next system.
There’s a massive difference between paying 100% attention 100% of the time or only paying 100% attention for one minute while there’s a threat nearby.
Instead of starting your whole comparison to bots, I hope you too agree that people can pay full attention for a minute?
No Covert (!!!) cloaky ship today has even remotely the tank and dps potential these new ships have. Hey, guess what why 99% of all players who hear about this new and fancy idea think it is incredible OP?
And against all of them a good tanky fitting helps, warping away helps, winning the fight helps.
Against these new ships you can lose your ship from the DOT even if breaking the tackle, even if winning the fight. Thats a frustration to the max.
I won’t even go further because I am actually bored of this stupid discussion. This concept is that stupid that no one with a glimpse of knowledge how EVE combat works (including all the interaction of the different mechanics, from skills to boni to tactical usage to countering hostile actions/maneuvers etc…) immediately knows it. And thats why CCP gets 99% negative feedback from all sources, be it forum, reddit or whatever. You are arguing for a totally lost cause here, there is nothing to win. There simply is nothing that is good or benefitial for the game in that design approach, and thats not an opinion.
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Hey, I just don’t like bandwagoning.
You say that 99% of the feedback about these ships is negative - I too have been reading and talking about these ships and see nothing that points to 99% negativity except this thread.
Reddit has some doomsayers, as usual, but that’s not the majority of opinions on this ship. I saw just as many positive as negative posts and comments. And many uninformed posts too.
In my opinion these new ships are strong and have the potential to be too strong.
But unless there isn’t anything to be done against such a new strong weapon I don’t see why that necessarily means the weapon is a bad addition to the game.
Some people make it sound as if adapting to a challenge is the end of the game.
For me adapting to challenges is the game.
Adapt.
Only if adapting isn’t possible or realistic will I be one of the players to tell CCP that it needs change. But as we haven’t even been able to fight against these ships there’s no adapting just yet.
Let’s wait and see.
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Adapt or die. I’ve heard this before somewhere. AAA, in the blackout, for sure.