EDITED:
I had an idea pop into my head last night. Probably over complicated and just a pain in the ass to do.
I would like to suggest that rat bounties be changed so that -
50% current bounty is paid by concord (this is the min)
The Empires that make up the pirate faction would pay up to half of the remaining 50%. The amount they pay would be based on their wallets and thus available funds.
How do the empires get funds - they get them from market taxes, war decs (concord divides the war dec cost into five parts), and other NPC fees. NPC sell orders for BPOs, other goods. ISK fees tied with LP store cost.
As a side point the ESS units can be updated so they the replace the 25% empire payout to pure LP. It would probably start at 20/25th and then move to after time to 30/25ths. (hope that makes since. just like the ESS now gives you a lower start up, you can earn more over time)
Examples: Provi ratters would get their bounties from Concord 50%, Amarr 25%, Caldari 25%.
This would bring in a lot more market warfare play styles. Wanna cause an income issue on a Null Bloc, attack their HS empire funding sources (aka trade hubs).
Tying empire income to capsuleer activities is a bit much (they are empires, with huge populations, so presumably their income comes mostly from taxes they levy on their population), but I like the idea of a maximum on the faucet. It could possibly even be tied with the region, constellation or system. The Amarr would likely care a lot more about killing rats in the amarr system than way out in null sec (why does concord pay to kill rats in null any ways??).
The further from the core systems you go, the less âavailable fundsâ there are in a region/constellation/system. The more you rat in a region/constellation/system, the more the problem is under control, the less the NPCs care about it, the less isk they are willing to pay for a given rat.
Some bit of self-regulation could do wonders in the current system!
Youâd pretty quickly hit the minimum payout and more or less stay there, because quite a bit of ISK leaves the game via players quitting, bans, or similar methods.
This would also basically tank incomes across the board because of the above mentioned race to the bottom for bounty payouts. That would have pretty massive and immediately negative effects on the economy as a whole and youâd probably see a pretty rapid contraction in both economic activity, which would exacerbate the problem of low bounties and less economic activity.
Basically, just by spitballing and napkin math, if you wanted to cause a recession in the game this would be a fantastic way to do it.
As a control on PLEX prices though, not so much.
Oh yeah, and this is pretty flatly impossible. Even Burn Jita doesnât actually shut down the market, and the overall player backlash from any organization that tried it would pretty quickly see that organization wiped from the game.
I thought the CCP economist said the basic year income for a NPC is 1 ISKâŚ
So they donât get most of their income from their own populations.
Concord currently by lore pay for the bounties unless you have an ESS unit in space.
I plan on updating the OP - but I would split the payment into three groups.
Min bounty is paid by concord - thats the faucet.
Then the Empires who make up the tech for the rats pay the other 50% 50/50. Iâm going back to the OP to address this.
You bring up some really good points. How bad it would be, I donât knowâŚ
You canât control the ISK tied up from players leaving game, but banned players have all their stuff seized. The ISK could be transfer to the Empire of the players birth. Along with the assets which could be posted for a smart market value on behalf of the empireâŚ
As we know. EVE players will min/max the crap out of any system CCP gives us. Which is why Iâve edited it, so that the income is divided by three groups vs 2. Plus there would be options to convert the ISK income to LP instead⌠Maybe to safe check the current LP stores, it could be a Empire LP that could be used at limited hubs in the Empire space. I donât know about that fully as I donât want to be to mean.
There would need to be a massive reworking of the system for this to work. Logs could probably be worked out that, would see how much each NPC corp/Empire has gained over the years, and that could be their starting amount.
No matter what, it would be a major hit to the economy right off the bat, but EVE would recover and adapt. We always do.
That was about 15 years ago, when they also believed that 1 Titan was a godly force and no-one would ever drop fleets of them. If you do maths by commodities such as water & food & livestock that we have access to, 1 isk has to be about $1. We are still amazingly wealthy since we count our income in the millions per hour normally if not the billions.
Also your idea really is terrible. And would result in even more wealth concentration in a few hands which is bad. Since it hits all the small income earners also.
The majority of the ISK that leaves the game this way does so when players quit or go inactive, so bans wouldnât win you back too much except in the case of super high profile ones.
Having CCP posting sell orders or something on the market be a mess and would get all sorts of criticism from the playerbase, so thatâs not gonna fly.
The whole system now is still overall ISK positive though, which means that if you cut bounty payouts, which is what this would do, and then still have ISK leaving the economy through player inactivity, as well as ISK sitting in wallets then youâre still going to hit min payouts quickly.
This then slows down economic activity and the game as a whole because players act based on two factors, the ISK in their wallets right now and how quickly it can be replaced. AKA donât fly what you canât afford to lose. If Iâm flying Carriers then I probably want 2-4 billion in my wallet at any given time, and this scales up or down as players age.
Converting ISK to LP would act as a further ISK sink, since LP requires ISK to be turned in, and it would devalue currently existing LP no matter what you did unless you make these new stores have completely separate items from the existing ones.
This isnât correct. CCP fixes all the really stupid stuff and has done a lot to keep the economy healthy and regulated. Shaking the fishbowl like this should not be assumed to be a survivable event. Or as another part of the internet would say âthis kills the fishâ.
Again, no matter what you do with a system like this youâre going to hit close to minimum payout pretty quickly, and once you do thereâs no clawing your way back up from that, because by nature the amount of money people put back into the system in taxes is going to be less than they earn, so with everyone pulling money out all the time thereâs just going to be a thin trickle of just-above-minimum payouts after the well runs dry.
(Laying in bed and) I wonder what this would do to a group like Goons. Who for two+ months have brought in ~7 trillion ISK plus each month.
The ISK probably doesnât mean â â â â to them. We got people hauling in so many minerals they are building stuff and then blowing it up for insurance because it pays more than shipping it out to a market.
We have 50+ rorqual mining, brining in that ore. Thatâs only the ones we really know about. All this in relative safety. How many supers and carriers are out rating? Making those dank ticks!
In essence, what I proposed is that we cut bounties in half, as you all say the max would be burned through quickly.
But would it really effect the well oiled and functioning power blocs?
We already know most LP stores need a major fix.
From watching the power play of many of the groups over the years, I think the large groups would adapt well. Small gangs and solo players would have it much harder. It isnât an idea that could happen over night, and probably would need multiple steps to have the least amount of rippling effect.
Upwell structures have been a major change for many groups and players. Most have adapted, those who havenât have probably left the game.
As I said, even I think it is a bad idea. Then again I donât trust CCP to do it right the first time with major change. They have a history.
The problem is that even in the hypothetical where youâre designing a completely new game with this system as a core element whatâs the point?
Youâre not really controlling inflation much if at all, youâre just tuning your inflation around the base payout value for the NPCs.
Iâm not even seeing any interesting incentives or other stuff associated with this, and to most players itâd just be a weird black box where NPC rewards sometimes go up a little for no reason.
It would push more people towards Rorqual Mining because youâre pushing down the ISK income from ratting pretty significantly, and if your goal is to buy a Carrier then pretty quickly it becomes more economical to mine the minerals and build it than to rat for however many hours are required to build it.
It would affect the line members. Most of the power blocks get their ISK through indirect means so while things like null rent might have to go down a bit it probably wouldnât have much of an effect on the large scale.
Really not sure who this âweâ is or why LP stores need a major fix. Thereâs nothing that Iâm aware of thatâs particularly broken about them. If youâre talking about prices or the fluctuations in LP value between stores thatâs the fault of the players, not CCP.
Any game company claiming they can make a major change to their game and get it 100% right the first time is either lying or Blizzard, and half the time Blizzard is lying to themselves too. The only reason for the other 50% is because Blizzard can throw enough money at the problem so that we as players only see their sixth or seventh iteration where theyâve fixed all the problems. The amount of time and internal testing that takes is cost prohibitive though, so no one else does it.
Another thing I am wondering, as I can pick your brain. The idea is flawed as I see it with the current ratting style of endless supply of rats.
So what kind of ratting system would have to be in place for something like this to work? Letâs think outside the current game play style.
Edit: for a long while I havenât been a big fan of the current - open probe window and see all the goodies in space. I am looking forward to seeing what CCP gives us when they upgrade the PVE side of the game. I personally would like to see ore anomalies get baked into the standard belts and then reduce the number of belts while making those left massive (Rorqual fleets can be addresses with spacing or limits on # of cores in an area). Combat anomalies - I think should be based around mini-incursions (Built around the shipyards maybe).
I will remember to return to this idea once more details of CCPs plans come out.
This doesnât work, itâs fundamentally economically flawed. What youâre trying to do is better accomplished by other systems or changes, rather than something that tries to move distinct amounts of currency around within the system.
Few problems here.
First off, making things have to be probed means you now need a probe launcher and for the most part thatâs needless work. You know the sites are there, you basically just end up either scanning them down and switching ships or keeping one guy scanning and dropping corp bookmarks. None of that adds anything besides busy work.
As for the belts vs ore anoms thing, Ore Anoms are a hack to make belts scale to a certain extent. Belts are static objects, ore anoms arenât, and that means that itâs easier for CCP to tweak things with ore anoms both in patches and in response to player activity in-game based on an algorithm. If you made belts truely massive then youâd be back to the old problem which ore anoms solved, which is the people who get on after DT get most or all of the ore because thatâs when the belts refresh.
Okay I think you misunderstood me on the probe window. That window should be for things I have to probe down, not for all the other stuff that is just there filling in. The overview could handle the other stuff - just as it does for the event sites and normal belts.
Also, besides Goons and a hand full of other groups, very few groups can fully mine out the ore anomalies everyday, so most of the stuff is picked. I am sorry to say HTFU, supplies should not be infinite in a single system.
You make belts go from the 30km to 250km that they are now and move to like a 2000 km to 8000 km, they become much larger with the ability to seed them. There could also be player features added to allow ârestockingâ durning the week. I would be open to letting belts respawn once a week. Work out ways to limit large groups from having 10k Rorquals in those belts and look at other balance tweets
Oooooh, okay, yeah that makes sense I think itâs just a tech problem. The Overview doesnât know about Anomalies and has no way to know about anomalies, because after the POS code the Overview is probably the oldest and scariest bit of Legacy Code in Eve. Less because itâs as janky as the POS code and more because if you break the Overview the entire game doesnât work.
Itâs not that I disagree exactly, itâs that I donât think we should be setting that number at a single definite value, because thatâs not future proof and has the potential to cause more problems than it solves if the game situation changes.
The problem with this line of thinking is that thereâs nothing you can do to actually hurt operations like the Goons without hurting everyone else worse, because if Goons need to they can occupy a bit more space or spread out more without much cost, but other groups canât. Plus Goons can always leverage their organization and sheer scale to solve a problem of logistics, which is basically what ore availability is.
The same applies to most of the other large groups but not so much to the small ones. Pretending otherwise is non-productive.
So looking at your last bit. We would have to find out was to break groups down so they donât exceed like 5-10k players.
Goons and the large groups that can will always N+1 the issue. One of the reason I stood behind the industrial core operation area limit instead of more nerfs to the drones and ships. It is a slippery slope trying to balance the game to keep big groups in check while not harming the small guy.
RL politics havenât figured it out.
Edit: for the rest of it - afaik CCP is looking at updating what code they can, they are looking at changes to the LP stores (has to do with their desire to remove attributes if that is still a goal - blue post from a few years back.) they are making changes to rats and hopefully the current 100mn VNI meta that tied with carriers is flooding the game with ISK (which we also have an over flow of ore as the inject-a-rorqual at least has kept some things in balance.)
Trying to figure out ways that would drive the ISK income down, while also looking at perks for interacting with NPC Empires and going about causing mayham for other player groups so your group can be on top. Which speaking with you, helped mesh out that the current system wouldnât work for it. But I am still interested in brain storming a system (or set/chain of systems) that could bring the flow of ISK down to a stable perspective!
Negative feedback is a great way to stabilize a system. Have CONCORD tax the sovereign to raise the funds to pay bounties. In NPC sovereign space the tax would be invisible to players (except the bounty tax if you belong to an NPC corporation). In sovereign Nullsec, CONCORD would tax the sovereign alliance, who would tax their member corporations, who have the ability to tax bounties paid to their members - which seems complicated - maybe alliances should be able to tax bounties directly.
It is late and my brain tired, so its coming up with more bad ideas (tied into this topic as a way to earn income for empires)
What if CCP was able to adapt NPC market orders (skill books etc) to use a dynamic marketing system that could take into account the inflation of the ISK.
So basic skill books/blueprints that cost a few thousand/million ISK would pretty much stay the same, but bigger skill books/blueprints would adapt in price. Thus, people looking to buy them would need to watch the flow of the market - it would also create opportunities for marketers to make ISK.
It would then be in the interest of the players to try to keep the inflation at a lower rate(?) if they planned on getting the most value for their ISK earned.
My dad used to get a soda pop for a nickel (five cents), but now a similar size drink could cost a dollar to two dollars. The inflation is there, with no control and no way to go back, unless everything was burned/reset.
As it stands, the NPC side of the market is static and not dynamic like the player side of the market, and there is no âcontrolâ in eve to create the boundary for inflation. Very much like how the USA lost the value of its dollar (plus inflation control) when it moved off the gold standard and just started printing money at will. The gold standard was the âcontrolâ - even has no âcontrolâ for the ISK. (this is my opinion)
There is literally no way to do this without destroying the sandbox nature of Eve, and the actual limit would have to be way below this if you wanted to create any kind of practical constraints on what people can pull off logistically. Keep in mind that something like B-R or Asakai involved under 5k total pilots and those fights involved entire power blocks clashing.
Thatâs because big groups will always have an inherent advantage brought on by manpower, whether thatâs in logistics, organizational ability, or the ability to take, hold, and secure territory.
If you force Rorquals to have fewer on-grid with some kind of radius limit then a larger group will be able to spread out their miners better, take new systems, and in the event of a serious dispute mediate it and compensate the participants.
Meanwhile a smaller group is likely to be a victim of that push for more space to accommodate more miners if it happens, and theyâll be less able to organize their players, enforce that organization, and mediate disputes while still being subject to the same restrictions.
Yeah, but this is a pretty slow process. More so than most people realize.
Iâve seen basically nothing about this, do you have a link or any other information?
AFAIK theyâve talked about this internally but they never said anything about this being an actual decided intention.
They are, they said theyâre looking at it in the last Carrier nerfs thread on the old forums.
Also, ironically, the Rorquals helped keep the ISK supply in check because Rorqual mining is an overall ISK negative activity since industry and selling ore are both ISK negative for the economy.
We donât need more systems for something like this, we just need to tweak the values in existing systems or tweak how those systems work a little. Like changing rat rewards, site behavior, ect.
I donât think thereâs any need for any kind of âperks for interacting with NPC Empiresâ as theyâre sort of supposed to be in the background for capsuleers. Thereâs also no need to try and do too many things with one idea or system. That sort of over complicated thinking tends to doom itself pretty quickly.
it was talked about with the removing attribute stuff. so lots of years old. wouldnât even know where to start looking.
(Iâve now learned to quote you better )
A (few) fanfest or Vegas ago, they talked about making it so player standings to empires mean more. Which would then mean perks/punishments depending on your standing with the empires.
edit: would have to be in a video of one the events. google fails me
Lol, I super like the new forum quotes features. Very easy, very intuitive.
But yeah, if itâs the same thing Iâm remembering CCP has never actually said theyâre definitely going to do that, some devs have just mentioned that theyâve looked at doing it. Personally Iâm not sure theyâre going to just because of the tradeoff between +5s, Pirate +4s, and Pirate +3s. Also how to allocate a remap matters, it just depends if they think the frustration of non-optimal training is worthwhile or not.
Yeah, I know theyâve talked about that a few times, but to me thatâs not really the same thing as this sort of idea. Probably more tying it to the LP stores or something similar more, or access to new PvE content based on standings.
If those standings become too important to the game as a whole then a lot of players end up screwed because those standings are really easy to tank and pretty hard to grind back up.
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