Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Aria_Jenneth]

I’m aware, and that’s fine. It’s the fact that you keep beating me with it that gets bothersome.

Just, like, leave it implicit and I’ll be fine. I don’t even care if your kin chime in with nasty remarks. I’ll take those as my due; I’m perfectly aware I’ve earned them. But you should know better by now. Being blunt isn’t going to make you any progress. You might make some progress through ancillary stuff, but once you get to the crux of things I’ll just meet you with equal and opposite stubbornness until I get sick of it, give you the finger, literal or metaphorical, again, and literally or metaphorically walk off.

I do learn and change, Arrendis; just not often the ways others want me to.

I like you. But you’ve been a pain, and even if I understand why my tolerance for it is pretty depleted.

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

Being blunt isn’t going to make you any progress. You might make some progress through ancillary stuff, but once you get to the crux of things I’ll just meet you with equal and opposite stubbornness until I get sick of it, give you the finger, literal or metaphorical, again, and literally or metaphorically walk off.

You know, you pretty consistently accuse me of wanting to ‘win’, but you’re the only one making all this about ‘making progress’, like there’s some goal to be achieved. As for ‘implicit’… it’s not implicit. If you’re discussing our customs, it’s hard to ‘leave it implicit’ when the customs, beliefs, and folklore are all about the thing you want to be ‘implicit’. I mean, how do you make slavery ‘implicit’ when talking about folklore about slavery?

So, yeah, I have trouble seeing how you think that discussion can actually happen under the rules you demand while insisting you don’t think everything has to be your way.

[Aria_Jenneth]

It’s pretty simple. You can, in virtually all cases, illustrate things very clearly without passing judgment on your audience.

The Gallente are quite good at this. It’s part of why I couldn’t stay there in the end: I’m well aware I’m a villain by their understanding of the moral world, and I could only spend so long immersed in that. It’s not like they were glaring accusingly at me all the time; I have no reason to think many of those around me even understood who I was.

Instead, I started having bad dreams, slipping into depression while awake. I became my own accuser.

That was nicely done. Driving me back to the Directrix’s side might not have been the intended effect exactly (it wasn’t even aimed at me, personally; it was more like cultural background radiation), but it’s definitely kept my body count down.

You? The direct approach? Yep: defenses fully online, except somewhat muted by how bored I get rehashing the same points yet again.

We can do the whole battle every time, or we can take the stalemate as a given and just skip it. … And maybe at some point it won’t be a stalemate anymore.

Not saying I think it’ll happen. Could, though. And at the least might keep me out of a mindset where I write the kind of post that gets Likes from Mr. Nauplius.

And these aren’t rules, really, Arrendis. I’m more explaining my understanding of the cause and effect around this, and a possible path through-- if you want to try it. If you want me to hate you and your cause, by all means keep beating me up.

Or, if you can’t be bothered, just leave me alone.

[Saava_Valtovist]

@Aria_Jenneth

In a pretty real way, it seems that freedom and responsibility aren’t good friends.

They might be yet. Someone entirely hemmed in by obligation and consequences isn’t really loyal or trustworthy after all, just well controlled.

It’s good to hear you have loved ones, kirjuun, and I think you should talk to them. Unless that makes you want to do unspeakable things to their tongues too.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

@Saava_Valtovist

Unless that makes you want to do unspeakable things to their tongues too.

To be in the receiving end of tongues that do unspeakable things is awesome.

[Aria_Jenneth]

I do. It doesn’t. They’re mostly Amarr.

The question here is partly whether I should give up on talking to people outside of my circle. … whether there’s really so much bitterness in this world that I’d be best off just putting my head down and tending to my own life.

I might be happier that way. Maybe we all would.

… But then I’d be letting Ms. Tsukiyo have all the fun exploring the world and poking her nose into stuff that’s none of her business, and that’s no good.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

@Aria_Jenneth

But then I’d be letting Ms. Tsukiyo have all the fun exploring the world and poking her nose into stuff that’s none of her business, and that’s no good.

Come on, what did i do now?

[Diana_Kim]

Tha’s my line!

[Aria_Jenneth]

Well, you make an interesting foil, more so if you actually develop further, though I doubt we’ll see eye to eye for a long time.

More immediately, if I withdrew from this place you’d be the only spiritual Achur here. The idea kinda gives me the cold shivers. I’m no Master, but you’re …

… yeah. No. I’m not going to disappear.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

@Aria_Jenneth

Well, you make an interesting foil, more so if you actually develop further, though I doubt we’ll see eye to eye for a long time.

I found this cryptic and confusing. Would you please elaborate?

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

except somewhat muted by how bored I get rehashing the same points yet again

And you think that’s any different for anyone else? You go on and on about seeking understanding, but anything that doesn’t fit your preconceptions, or threatens to make you uncomfortable, you immediately reject and accuse other people of trying to ‘win’. Nobody’s trying to ‘win’.

Do you think that doesn’t bore people? Do you think you’ve said anything even remotely new or insightful in the last 6+ years? It’s really hard to seek new insights when you’re on a path so well-worn, it’s become a trench you can’t see out of.

[Aria_Jenneth]

I’m really short. You’ll probably have to become a bent old crone before your eyes and mine are at the same level.

Joking.

So, you’re familiar with what a “foil” is, as a literary or storytelling device? An alternative to the protagonist, a kind of in-setting counterfactual? It’d be hard to find two even partially-trained monks with more different personalities and outlooks than the two of us. You’re my only real peer in this sense, and you’re completely bizarre.

A little interesting, though. Even if don’t find the path you’ve chosen even a tiny bit tempting, I am a little bit looking forward to seeing what becomes of you. I’ll be pretty disappointed if you end up just stalling out in a pit of decadence and self-indulgence or binding yourself into a Nation collective on a lark and never coming out again.

I’m pretty sure you can do better. I’m kind of looking forward to seeing what you’ll be like, over time.

@Arrendis

Nobody’s trying to ‘win’.

I am hugely impressed that you can make that argument right in the middle of the IGS with, apparently, a straight face.

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

I am hugely impressed that you can make that argument right in the middle of the IGS with, apparently, a straight face.

I am impressive, I know.

[Saronu_Yassavi]

The trap inherent to the IGS isn’t trying to win. It’s the inclination it fosters to ensure people you disagree with lose.

[Arrendis]

That is indeed a trap to be wary of. That’s why I prefer to simply express myself and move on. Granted, sometimes what I’m expressing is a little repetitive, but sometimes different things provoke a similar response. Funny ol’ thing, life.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

@Aria_Jenneth

We can take hostility to the Amarr as read; it’s inevitable, but also frankly boring. I get the “why,” I just don’t share it, and I won’t no matter how often it’s said. Sometimes there’s a usually-horrifying new wrinkle, but it mostly stopped being interesting literally years ago.

I’m more interested in stuff like customs, folklore, religious beliefs, family structures, weirdnesses, needs and how to deal with them

And this, Aria Jenneth, is part of why you come through as condescending and irritating.

You don’t share it, therefore it is boring, uninteresting, and irrelevant. You are interested in customs and folklore and belief systems - as long as they do not include that boring thing you do not share. You want to hear about people and ideas - just not if they are the wrong ones.

You want us to be polite, which means do not bring up antislavery even if someone mentions slaves. Objecting would bore people, and they already know you hate it, so smile, nod, and keep on describing your painting hobby.

And no, I am not saying that sometimes I do not want the same. I do not in fact spend all my time discussing war - not even when I talk to the enemy. Sometimes you want to get away and just have a nice cup of tea without bothering with the war.

But it is one thing to drop the subject because I want to, and to be demanded that out of politeness and in order not to bore them I drop it in the presence of the Lords and Ladies and their entourage.

“I get it that you fear for your people’s existence, now get over it and entertain me”? Nope.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Saronu_Yassavi

The trap inherent to the IGS isn’t trying to win. It’s the inclination it fosters to ensure people you disagree with lose.

I feel that even people who I disagree with on many or most issues can sometimes make good points.

“Losing” a debate in this regard can one of the best ways to actually learn something if the ‘loss’ is in earnest.

[Saronu_Yassavi]

Sincere discourse is rarely about winning or losing, but before an audience it is more common to be stubborn about the path than the goal.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m really short.

Can you do unspeakable things with your tongue?

@Aria_Jenneth

So, you’re familiar with…

Yes, just never crossed my mind that you would consider me something akin to an… antagonist?

@Aria_Jenneth

It’d be hard to find two even partially-trained monks…
…and you’re completely bizarre

Gateless gate and all that. Lots of byproducts that people mix up with destination.

I don´t know when you got tangled up with Amarr and what the hell you filled your cup with, but here the training was complete (including learning to kill people with ones body), and it mostly consists of how to empty the cup. A bowl is most useful when it is empty.

@Aria_Jenneth

end up just stalling

How can one stall when there is no destination?

@Aria_Jenneth

a pit of decadence and self-indulgence

Do want, please invite! My books tend to be more mellow however, sells better or so the publisher tells me.

@Aria_Jenneth

binding yourself into a Nation collective

I wouldn´t be surprised at all if there was some clone of “me” already there. In fact, that is a great idea!

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m pretty sure you can do better

That would require a worse, as in a duality, as in a not non-duality, as in buiishlt.

[Valerie_Valate]

Update: I did indeed have four sausages for the evening meal yesterday.