Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

Some consider it like the difference between authority and leadership, sometimes they are together (and things tend go well when they are together), sometimes they are not.

Authority is obeyed as duty is fulfilled, no room for questioning or deciding, it just is the way, something impersonal and aprioristic.

Perhaps it is easier when the whole society is looking out for the collective, the institutions of authority are the default and one knows that what what is asked is most likely for its own benefit.

As Arrendis mentioned and in line with what you said, loyalty is something one gives, not an act performed.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Che_Biko

I just watched the recording of this attack again, knowing it formed you in part. I’m wondering why you deserved it. Were you really lying to her?

Nothing that I said during the incident was a lie.

But back then, I actively fought on behalf of a truly wicked empire. My actions, despite any intentions I may have had, hurt a lot of innocent people supporting conflict of extermination. I didn’t see it for what it was at the time, but that doesn’t change the fact that my actions made me complicit.

Getting some sense beaten into me, among other things, helped me stumble onto the long road to becoming a better person.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

@Elsebeth_Rhiannon

forced loyalty

I am not sure such a thing exists. Forced obedience does, but loyalty seems very different. Loyalty implies that when given the option to not obey, the person chooses to anyways. At it’s heart that is the core of any test of faith and duty, it is the moment when it becomes possible to decide to be loyal or not.

Such tests of faith are dangerous moments where duty and obligation can be shattered by doubt, greed, and fear. They are moments where failure begets damnation. But without their having happened you cannot tell if a person has true loyalty.

“For whosoever shall lay their life down for their Lord / They shall be taken into the arms of God / And forever consecrated will they be / But whosoever shall turn from the light / And run in fear / The Lord shall abandon them / And forever forsaken will they be.”

[Arrendis]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

I am not sure such a thing exists. Forced obedience does, but loyalty seems very different. Loyalty implies that when given the option to not obey, the person chooses to anyways.

Of course it does. For example, the person who not only obeys, but openly advocates obedience and decries even questioning the relevant authority, in part because they know their loved ones will suffer if they don’t. Like say, if someone embraces a zealous, fanatical loyalty to House Sarum because he doesn’t want his children to be enslaved.

[Diana_Kim]

@Pozdro_Tubylcy

individual freedom does not exist in the new eden…

It does! Just people are smart enough to not choose it.
And those who want to obtain it have ability to grab a shuttle, leave all their possessions behind, land on some indigenous temperate planet, take off clothes and go run naked with wild animals like a wild animal. With all the individual freedom their perversive egoistic minds will want.

[Diana_Kim]

@Arsia_Elkin

Getting some sense beaten into me, among other things, helped me stumble onto the long road to becoming a better person.

My drill instructor in the Academy was telling: “You can beat people only as a punishment, but you can’t beat sense into them. When you beat people you make them dumber, not smarter.”

As for being a better person, good persons never betray anyone. If you’re walking on a road to becoming a better person, you’re walking it in the wrong direction.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

@Arrendis

Of course it does. For example, the person who not only obeys, but openly advocates obedience and decries even questioning the relevant authority, in part because they know their loved ones will suffer if they don’t. Like say, if someone embraces a zealous, fanatical loyalty to House Sarum because he doesn’t want his children to be enslaved.

In that case the real loyalty would be to the children, not to the liege lord who threatens them.

Obedience for the wrong reasons is still better than rebellion against God’s Order, but it is decidedly more brittle than actual bonds of loyalty in a working system.

[Arrendis]

I’d argue that any order that chooses to maintain obedience through fear and reprisal, rather than inspire loyalty and devotion by first demonstrating loyalty and devotion to those it purports to command, is itself fomenting rebellion.

As for where the ‘real’ loyalty lies… is there a functional difference when the adherent is so steeped in their own abuse that they believe their ‘real’ loyalty is to those who threaten their children?

[Arrendis]

@Diana_Kim

As for being a better person, good persons never betray anyone.

So, if someone is born a Federal Citizen, they should never fly for the State, because that would make them traitors and betrayers, right?

Even if, you know, they’re ethnic Caldari, born on Caldari Prime while it was completely administered by the Federation…

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

That is not why I am loyal to Lord Arrach Sarum or the Empire.

[Arrendis]

Of course not. And you’ve never said as much in private, either.

[Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji]

I think it takes maturity to question one’s own beliefs and ask why one should be obedient to an authority. If an authority or institution that demands loyalty cannot withstand personal scrutiny, then I do not think it has much value in following.

Blind obedience is an excuse, not a reason.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Well-- that might depend a little on “for whom,” though, Ms. Ryuzouji.

The State has a pretty strong cultural programming habit. Children aren’t really raised to question their circumstances, and mostly they’re raised to respect authority and take orders well. Dissent maybe isn’t punished harshly, but it’s discouraged just the same. Even those who leave often have a lot of trouble leaving certain … I guess you might call them “habits of mind” behind.

The thing is I’m not at all sure that’s a bad thing. As long as it isn’t abused (which it has been, and will continue to be at least at times because even State elites are human and that’s how humans are), it means that those who are positioned to lead are trusted to lead well and can do so without having every Laborer and Technician constantly second-guessing every policy decision.

Leaders lead. That’s what they’re for. At the high level, like the Great Families, that’s often something they’ve been preparing for all their lives. Your average Laborer knows his business, but not much beyond it. Tibus Heth demonstrated the reason you don’t give an MTAC operator dictatorial powers and expect good things to come from it. (He did manage some needed reforms before falling off the Templis cliff, mind.)

Some folk are cut out for complex abstract thought. Some just … aren’t. The society works at its best if those who are take their duties seriously, and those who aren’t don’t concern themselves too much with policy (but also take their duties seriously).

The Federation’s most dangerous quality is that it encourages every last Laborer-equivalent to have opinions about everything (and if you ever visit, oh my ancestors do they ever!) and vote accordingly. Leaders can try to coax or push them this way or that, but in the end their top-level ruler is the mob. It can never be trusted to make the correct call when it matters.

I’ve never understood how they make this actually work, but it’s plain to see why nobody else in New Eden has adopted this strange system for themselves.

(About your earlier question: I am okay, thank you. Mostly. Sort of. … At least, I’m probably better off as I am than as I was. Some might differ. Either way, I’ve got a lot more sense of self than I did even a few years ago.)

[Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji]

Personally, I respect authority because I have trust in the system that those who make decisions above me have earned their place to do so through displayed ability and talent. I would care very little about the prestige of a Great Family if a scion from that family were incompetent or inept and I would trust the system composed of those who also believe in the primacy of personal ability as the requisite to authority to have such a person removed.

However my trust and faith in the State system only continues to exist insofar as it is earned, and to the extent to which my upholding of it is believed warranted by those who exercise power and authority within it. If I felt my leaders were incompetent or dishonourable I would feel no need to obey them – indeed, I might very well feel if such were the case then disobedience would be the only recourse for me.

A slavish devotion to authority means nothing if it is not informed by principle as how, when, how, and to whom obedience should be given.

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

Recognizing the consequences of severe failure is not the same as being afraid of it. I am rather secure in the knowledge that my family is regarded well amongst the Sarum Court and will continue to be so long as we prove to not be liabilities to our peerage.

As for how you might know my private thoughts, I doubt your sources are reliable any more. People change, and I have, as you are apt to point out. Personally, I believe I have done so for the better, though you’d surely decry any virtues I have gained as evidence of personal failure.

[Arrendis]

@Aldrith_Shutaq

People change, and I have, as you are apt to point out. Personally, I believe I have done so for the better, though you’d surely decry any virtues I have gained as evidence of personal failure.

@Arrendis

As for where the ‘real’ loyalty lies… is there a functional difference when the adherent is so steeped in their own abuse that they believe their ‘real’ loyalty is to those who threaten their children?

I mean… called it?

[Aria_Jenneth]

Well … without completely disagreeing, Ms. Ryuzouji, it’s probably just as well the many Templis Dragonaur sympathizers in the Caldari lower castes don’t seem to share your feelings or we might be dealing with a new Waschi Uprising every two weeks.

The problem with giving a broad license for free thought and action is that you give it to everyone, whether they’re capable of using it well or not.

In practice, of course people will judge their superiors’ actions and the outcomes from them, especially over time. Mutterings of discontent grow alongside lists of failures. For the sake of civil order, though, it seems best not to just assume dissent’s correct and proper just because it’s sincere.

[Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji]

I would consider that just as those who are governed have an obligation to those who govern, then so do those who govern have an obligation to those they govern. Without at least the threat of disobedience or revolt, then there can be little accountability for the malfeasance of a leader who acts outside the interests of those they so lead.

Civil order is just as much about sound and good governance in accordance with the consent of the governed than it is about obeying authority by those who are governed. The years under the rule of the former Executor are a clear indication of that.

[Aria_Jenneth]

The threat of disobedience is pretty much unavoidable, though; there’s no need to write laws for chaos. Put to it, after all, chaos will ignore them anyway and do what it wants. Cause, you know, it’s chaos.

Law or no, everyone is accountable in the court of Consequence.

(Although making sure that leaders expend their resources on ruling well rather than dodging consequences might be a worthwhile thing…)

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Corporations seek to control the physical reality of citizens and who, how, when, and why they associate with. Examples would be corporate control of housing, mass surveillance of the public, and promotion of membership within clubs and associations of those belonging to similar socioeconomic classes.

Makes good business sense.

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

When, how, and with whom a citizen has sex with. This can be seen by social strictures on pre-marital sex and the control exerted by corporate marriage authorities on marital sex and their ability to promote marital sex solely between those of similar ethnicity and socioeconomic class.

Happily arranged marriages are happily arranged marriages. What’s not to love?

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Corporate control of clothing, dress, and hairstyle through determining what is and what is not deemed appropriate in the workplace or socially.

Enforcing a dress code, the nerve!

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Financial reliance on corporations through the scrip system. Gambling and consumerism is promoted with the aim of reducing potential savings and continued reliance on corporate employment.

How is this a problem, exactly? Keep that economy turning.

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Discouragement of individualism, and encouragement of group-think. Individualism is decried as morally reprehensible or selfish whereas subservience to the group is promoted as heroic or selfless.

Thinking of others more then yourself. How selfish!

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Behaviour modification through a system of incentives and disincentives for citizens.

You mean like, consequences for bad behavior and rewards for good?

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Dissent or questioning corporate authority can lead to physical violence or punishment.

Spare the rod…

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Creation of an Outsider versus Insider doctrine (Us vs. Them). The State is portrayed as being in a struggle for survival against outside forces framed as evil or malicious requiring the constant sacrifice of the citizen.

First government system to employ this tactic! Go State for being innovative!

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Compartmentalization of information into Outsider versus Insider. Outside information is distorted, misquoted or taken out of context, or deemed evil, wrong, or malicious.

See previous point! Yay us!

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Those capable of critical thinking or constructive thought are tightly regulated and controlled. For example, scientists and technicians are forced to live in separate enclaves.

It’s to protect them from the Stupids. Highly contagious and not easily cured.

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

The forbidding of critical criticisms of leaders or policy.

We don’t have bad leaders. What are you talking about?

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Promote “good and proper” thoughts by teaching thought-stopping techniques to stop negative or critical thoughts such as with “mind tool” promoted by the corporations.

We don’t have negative thoughts or opinions about the State. What are you getting at. Should we?

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Make citizens feel guilt or unworthiness. Meritocracy is used to blame the citizen for their own lack of success not the system or leadership. Heiian culture is used to promote feelings of shame over loss of honour or prestige.

Work harder! You get more when you work harder!
Also, shame is a driving force for more productivity. So, work harder you lazy good for nothing…

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Instill fear of leaving the corporation or State by promoting shunning by former friends and family, the threat of becoming a non-entity, and persecution as a traitor.

Your family is the State. Why would you ever abandon your family? Why?!?

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Encouragement of spying on others on behalf of the corporation or State.

Hang on, I’m just writing down what I just saw….

@Tsuneshi_Ryuzouji

Altogether I think it was all just more libertine propaganda out of the Federation!

They would never!