Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
4301

Fundamentally, I think any functional society has to operate on the consent of the majority of a populace towards those who govern. Whether that consent is called duty, loyalty, obligation, tradition, culture, religion, divine law, or democracy. The only alternative to rule without such consent by the majority of a populace is through violence, repression, and the use of force which can only continue insofar as those promulgating violence in the interest of a ruling class consent to do so.

The Caldari State was formed due to a lack of desire to consent to rule of the Gallente Federation, and since Federal law was regarded as illegitimate over the Caldari people the only recourse was disobedience, and later violence when the Federation sought to impose their rule through the use of force.

I think, knowing and remembering this, Caldari leaders are wise enough to know that the consent of those they lead is vital otherwise the only other recourse is violence and repression which is a fragile and brittle thing.

4302

So … this may sound cynical, Ms. Ryuzouji, but it seems like in most non-democratic societies the “consent” of the majority isn’t required. “Consent” kind of seems like it implies someone, well, asked them. As opposed to just cruising right ahead with the succession or whatever.

A better word might be “assent,” which I gather is used in certain contexts for cases where someone whose opinion in a matter has no legal force, such as a child, gives agreement. Or maybe “acquiescence?”-- anyway, something a bit more passive and a bit more like, “Fine, we won’t rebel this month,” than, “Yes, you have our go-ahead to rule us.”

Nobody in the State asks the Laborers their actual opinion on policy unless they’re trying to make trouble. What they do, is try to keep them happy. (Or happy enough.)

As for the formation of the State, well … there’s a certain definition of “freedom” that the State typifies: freedom from having others’ ways, outsiders’ ways, imposed on you. As opposed to individuals within the society being able to broadly do as they please, Federal-style.

Or, put more cynically: “Freedom to oppress our own by our customary methods without outside interference.”

To be clear, if I sound a little bitter it’s because I’m jalaan on certain matters myself. Grateful to the State though I am for its protection of Achura, it’s not a place I can really live, given its policies, implicit or overt, towards mixed-blooded people like me.

4303

Watch the cylinder fail, the entire sequence of combustion timing get thrown off, and the engine seize up catastrophically?

4304

Tacit consent is still consent. When the governed no longer consent to being governed, they have a tendency to rise up and start putting the governors to death. And on a related note…

Congratulations, you’ve just described how the Amarr Empire keeps its slave population in line—and how they’ve now rededicated themselves to their divinely-manded agenda of obliterating all other cultures to bring all of humanity into unity with their god, under the Throne.

4305

Good times.

4306

Firstly, anyone who says ‘with respect’ or any derivative of such does not intend to convey it. That you see fit to address me with my last name only like an instructor to a fresh-faced rating in naval school rather than with a title I have earned is indicative of that.

Secondly, I grew up in the State. I am more than qualified to speak from my experiences in that society, especially on the honour system which has been cited to justify several incidences in my career as an Empyrean sailor. Whilst I am no longer bound by the State honour system as I am no longer a State Citizen, those that claim to be aggrieved by those that would not have standing under said system are giving weight to an honourless person’s claims.

I will not employ violence to effect a change when other methods are available and will not lead to needless loss of life, for my own employees and others. From the attitude emanating from your post and that you had set the war as mutual preventing potential allies from rendering assistance, it appears that your intention was for this installation to be destroyed all along as a stunt. I can only hope that those you deceived into crewing this structure made it off safely. That is the real injustice - aside from that your installation was equipped so ineptly.

1 Like
4307

At the time of writing, I had not yet procured appropriate caffeination. At my age, it can at times be difficult not to refer to those younger mildly dismissively if I’m groggy.

You do have my sincere apology for that Commander Adams.

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4308

I’m no philosopher by any means, my career was in law with the Peace and Order Unit, however due to that I feel it is my place to at least try to understand violence, its uses, and its place in society.

It is apparent that wide segments of the labour classes are unhappy with their conditions for there have been continued revolts both major and minor for the past twenty years. The Brothers of Freedoms, Provists, Kyonoke protests, and current revolts in the aftermath of the Triglavian invasions. I am not a labourer, but I do not believe such protests would have been undertaken lightly given the potential consequences involved.

There is I believe a loss of consent among the labour class which is eroding the public confidence and social order. I do not believe sending in security forces to quell the protests and demonstrations would prove to be a solution in the long-term. They will likely be successful in pacifying civil disobedience, but without addressing root causes as to why such protests have occurred I fear for a future where citizen will be asked to conduct violence against citizen in perpetuity or for the rise of demagogues in the disorder.

Yes, I do not think the Amarr themselves deny their history of conquest. However, the Empire has been a steadfast ally to the State for over a century and has not engaged in actions that would be considered seeking the obliteration of Caldari culture.

I would agree that slavery by its nature implies the loss of consent by the slave, however.

4309

Concur. To my eye, such a thing doesn’t need endorsement from any theory of governance. It’ll just happen: a consequence, as predictable as falling rocks. Though it can be hard to judge just when and why the rocks may fall.

4310

Maybe that’s true in the Federation, Mr. Adams. I find a lot of use for it in the Empire, and the people who object (for the reason you cited) are usually from the Republic or Federation.

For me, it’s a way of saying, in fewer words, “I am going to say a thing that needs saying, even though my status doesn’t give me the position to say it. Someone should, no one else seems to be about to, and I’m not trying to undercut your position or authority by doing so, my lord, but … [insert thing here].”

Maybe you just don’t encounter people you’d unironically accept as your social superiors very often, Mr. Adams?

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4311

Though in this particular situation Ms Jenneth, it was indeed me letting my age and sleep adled brain dictate some talking downward, where frankly none was required or needed.

4312

Fair. I mean, Federal context, noted?

But, he didn’t qualify that statement at all.

4313

I am not Federal.

4314

O … kay? (He definitely is at this point. But, okay, what do you self-identify as?)

4315

Firstly, dishonorable traitors don’t deserve even a milligram of respect.

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4316

Only because they have their sights on other victims first. Make no mistake, their mandate is all of humanity. When you are left with no-one left to help you, they will fall upon you as well.

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4317

Which is why I’ve been a proponent of better relations with the Republic, though the reactions I’ve gotten from various State and corporate leaders has run the gamut of blase disinterest, to outright apathy.

While the Federation has bad blood with the State, and the Republic tends to ride with whatever political winds blow from the Fed when it comes to the State, neither of these three empires have, built within their founding ethos, the cornerstone goal of conquering all those who stand outside their sphere of control. Ultimately, until the Amarr lt go of their divine mission of conquest, they are the largest threat between the four empires.

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4318

Eh, the Federation has its fair share of ‘our way will come to dominate the cluster’. They just believe it’s a natural inevitability of being exposed to their ways… but at the same time, history’s definitely shown that when people join, then decide ‘you know, we’d rather go it alone’, they react with violence and oppression. The Caldari were entirely within their rights to withdraw from the Federation, and their liberation of their homeworld centuries later was just as proper, even if it remains in the heart of Federal space.

Frankly, I’m surprised the Feds didn’t get more pissy about the Republic’s rejection of Federal-style parliamentary democracy in favor of the Tribal Council model. But then, with the number of Minmatar living in the Fed… I suspect they, like the Empire, believe they have enough of a claw-hold in our people to eventually absorb us all.

If so… they’re wrong.

On the whole, though, I think the cluster would be far, far safer and more stable if the cosmopolitical landscape shifted as a result of a State-Republic compact. If either of the expansionist powers were to make a move, they would be faced with all three of the other powers.

After all, if the Empire made a move on the Republic, the Federation certainly wouldn’t be able to risk an Imperial victory… and the same would be true of the Empire, in the event of a Federal assault on Caldari space. And the two smaller powers would, together, almost certainly present price either of the expansionist powers would balk at, for fear of the other’s unblunted military capabilities.

3 Likes
4319

I will be glad to see you in the discussion!

4320

I will be glad to see you in the discussion!
Your political position is close to me - “We trust qualifications, and you trust popularity. To each his own - this is freedom!”