@Arrendis Dr. Valate has a good point, actually. In a lot of those cultures humiliation was seen as worse than death.
We don’t really … “do” death. Not in any consistent way, at least? We still do humiliation, though.
Although, not sure we really think of it as worse than (permanent) death ourselves, necessarily? Hm.
Humiliation was seen as potentially worse than death. But then, going down fighting was seen as the exact opposite of humiliation, in those same cultures.
And let’s face it: most capsuleers don’t give a damn what most capsuleers think of them. I don’t even know the meme she’s referencing.
I wonder if that’s true, though. It seems like feigned indifference to public opinion is quite a bit more common than the genuine article. Looking like you don’t care is itself a way of playing the social game.
That’s quite a claim there. Got any data, polls, anything to back that up?
I mean, a lot of capsuleers put on a front of not caring, but under all the bravado, all the cringry edgeness, do they “really” not care what other capsuleers think of them.
And if they truly don’t, is that a good thing, or is it a sign we’ve lost touch with the fabric of being a social people living within the confines of our socities?
It was an incident about… 16 years ago, I think ?
As I recall it, an egger flew an expensively-equipped battleship into a supercarrier camp, then attempted to avenge this loss by using a Revelation, that for some reason was equipped with a hugely expanded cargohold, rather than say, bigger heat sinks. Result was another, even more expensive, loss. All without support from his corporation or alliance which was based in an entirely different region. Because of “honour” or something. Anyway, a lot of other capsuleers became enraged, and a meme was created. “Honour Tanking”.
There were even some novelty art works sold to capsuleers as a result of this meme. A glass tank full of mysterious liquid.
Its not the technology in of itself. It is the cloning process, when the spirit transfers from one vessel into another where the erosion occurs. The more one has modified the flesh, the more “incompatible” it becomes with the spirit upon each transfer.
A decade of direct experience with one of the largest groups of capsuleers in New Eden’s history?
We ran the numbers, repeatedly: Something like 80-85% of capsuleers in New Eden are in larger alliances, most of those in null. That means for most capsuleers, ‘most capsuleers’ are actively the enemy. And they’re taught early on to care only about what their own group thinks of them—and not even all of that, really, just their own little knot in their own corporation, because most of their allies will never really know them enough to have a meaningful opinion.
And their enemies—who, remember, would be the vast majority of capsuleers in New Eden—don’t matter. They’re all mindless drones believing whatever their leaders tell them to believe, and they hate you for being you, so to hell with their opinion.
In fact, I’d say it’s a necessary reality of the naked tribalism that drives most of capsuleer society: most people are not part of your group, and the only social bonds you tend to care about in that scenario are the ones within your group. Kind of exactly the purpose of social bonds: securing and reinforcing the group.
If anything, multiculturalism is more a sign of losing touch with the fabric of being a social people, because being a social people is basically a behavioral method of reinforcing insular bonds. Multiculturalism means accepting other social models as just as valid, and letting yourself interact within many paradigms, diluting your strong, insular bond with your original group.
I’m … not sure this account actually works for your case, though, Arrendis.
Let’s say that your numbers are totally accurate, and your account of the sentiments of line members. But that means that those members care about their own standing within their cliques or corporations, which in turn care about their standing within the alliance or coalition, which in turn care about their standing in New Eden generally, if only because embarrassing incidents can cost you promising recruits and allies.
In a way, humiliation is the only thing some of these groups may really care about. It hurts reputation, which is much harder to build up than ISK caches and probably even war fleets.
I of course don’t remember ever being in such a group (unless you count PY-RE), but if I’m not mistaken a really humiliating lossmail was potentially a firing offense, at one time if not now. Even leaving that aside, a fearsome reputation is a defense all its own, while a reputation for weakness and foolishness gets you brushed aside or stomped on.
So even if it’s only vicariously, because of the knock-on effects, I think people do indeed care.
Which are not the majority of capsuleers, and thus, the majority of the capsuleers still do not care about the opinions of the majority of capsuleers.
Nope. Because within the group, it’s not humiliating. It’s funny. That’s an important function of the group: to take the things that could be considered humiliating and make them into moments of group support, promoting group cohesion through laughing together.
That’s a terrible policy that doesn’t serve the group at all. Attempting to promote unity through fear is ultimately self-defeating.
… Not sure I’d describe it as promoting unity through fear, but, sure. What you’re describing is maybe closer to the way LUMEN works (without the contempt for outsiders), but I’m also pretty sure it’s not universal. It may not even be the rule.
Ah well.
I’m not sure it’s properly a nebula, exactly “pretty,” or that “fond” is the word, but Caroline’s Star is something I find myself looking at a lot, and wondering. It’s visible kind of all over you know.
I think that’s a really key point. I’ve never been with a group that gets upset at humiliating lossmails, and I can’t imagine anyone feeling any sort of loyalty to a group that did.
If a humiliating lossmail is grounds for firing, then what emotion do you think that’s inspiring?
If you’re looking at a group that’s been around for even as much as two years, I suspect you’re looking at a group that places emphasis on mutual internal support and ‘to hell with what those guys think’ for outsiders. Because it’s not contempt. Contempt involves effort. It’s complete dismissal—their opinions about you are irrelevant.
Pride, maybe? … Perhaps, trust?
I did say really humiliating, Arrendis. Not just, like, embarrassing, but, like, the kind where you wonder what they were thinking, and you ask, and the explanation makes it worse? A multifoliate blossom of ridiculous and bad.
Somebody gets ganked with a questionable fit, you maybe have a talk. That’s not what I mean. If you fire for that, sure, it might cause some fear, but that’s not what I was talking about.
I mean properly Bad, excellence in badness. The original example here created a meme that apparently was still getting riffed on years later.
That’s not something people usually fear much because most of us don’t see ourselves getting into that situation (including, especially, the people who actually do, because getting into that situation usually requires a certain amount of arrogance). Someone who does may be troublesome in a number of other, and possibly related, ways.
So maybe it’s more that a bad loss merits a chat and perhaps a bit of counseling on how to fit a dreadnought and why, while that same loss as one part of a general overall pattern of arrogance and willfully-ignorant trouble-making might get someone ushered out the door?
So if I tell you ‘you screw up and you’re gone’, that’s going to make you proud? That’s going to make you trust me?
That whole ‘I am proud to belong to a group that suffers no fools’ or ‘I trust these people to be good because otherwise they’d be gone’ thing? Yeah, that doesn’t actually work. That’s not what fosters those feelings.
The new person doesn’t feel pride or trust, just anxiety. Pride comes over time from doing your job. Trust comes from seeing others do theirs. Neither of those requires the ‘If you embarrass us, you’re out’ approach. Just the opposite: the more you build anxiety into the process, the more likely your recruits are to screw up.
Yeah, because that bad is rare. Rare enough that no, you never need an actual policy about that bad. That’s ‘don’t gank the Rhea I just jumped onto a pirate citadel in lowsec, you lowsec pirates, I know The Mittani!’ bad.
By the way? He wasn’t kicked out of NCdot for that bad, either.
Kind of undercutting your own
there, Aria. Either it’s something they care about, or it’s something they don’t. If it’s the only thing they care about, and it’s so rare that it’s “not something people usually fear much because most of us don’t see ourselves getting into that situation” then you can’t really say they actually care about other capsuleers’ opinions, can you?
The Cloud Ring and The Cauldron are my favorites. I also vividly remember the experience of seeing Ginnungagap the first time from Kalavela Expanse. It’s hard to appreciate the power and scale of that thing until you observe it from an extreme distance - and it still terrifies you.
The Jovian Nebula. The sickly off-green pea soup colour really adds to it’s precursor-progenitor feel. I often try to find clips of the alliance tournament broadcasts that show the inside view. V difficult
So, uh, pilot? If I’m not mistaken that literally is Caroline’s Star.
It didn’t used to look like that.
Bit cryptic but not bad really considering the subject matter.
See, Arrendis? Not never, just … not often.
Nah. Trying too hard to be clever with his senselessness, he tripped himself up.