Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Nicoletta_Mithra]

But, what you described there primarily is not virtues balancing each other, but exactly virtues being the balance between a too much and a too less. The mean between deficency and excess. I don’t think it makes much of a difference if you conceptualize virtue as a target to be aimed at or a balance to be reached: The salient point is really the same.

Also, of course, just possessing one virtue and then lacking all the others is not making someone virtuous in the broadest sense: That would be someone who possesses all virtues and that’s only when they come to full bloom. But that’s something on top of the previously said.

[Saronu_Yassavi]

Virtue is a product of nature, learning and practice, it is well to give thought to virtue; but not at the expense of the needful duties of life. It is only action that gives a true value and commendation to virtue.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Saronu_Yassavi

it is well to give thought to virtue; but not at the expense of the needful duties of life.

Being virtuous is a duty in and of itself.

[Aria_Jenneth]

I … can’t agree, ma’am.

Take “curiosity” again. Absent all the other virtues, there’s no “correct” level to be curious at. Devour ravenously, nosh sedately, nibble timidly, or ignore the banquet before you entirely: if you’re not exercising other virtues to adjust the nature of the feast, you’re going to be doing damage.

People aren’t going to be impressed if you vivisect only one of your neighbors to find out how they work, nor even just their pets.

[Saronu_Yassavi]

Although I fundamentally agree with you on that point, being virtuous isn’t an action; it’s conducting yourself justly and reasonably. Allowing myself a more romantic parlance, virtue is politeness of the soul.

Virtue without action contributes nothing to the society you’re part of, at which point it becomes a vanity serving no purpose but aggrandisement of the self.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Saronu_Yassavi

Virtue without action contributes nothing to the society you’re part of

Neither does action without the consideration of virtue.

I also never said one shouldn’t act. Action is important.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Agreed, basically, ma’am.

Really, is there even such a thing as totally passive virtue? It might depend on what you think of hermits.

[Nicoletta_Mithra]

Well, I would venture the claim that if there is no “correct” level to be curious at, absent all the other virtues, then the other virtues won’t be very useful in attaining that goal, for they had no aim to guide those other virtues towards. That said, I’d claim if curiosity is to be understood as virtue it basically is ther correct level of going after knowlege - neither to pursue knowledge excess (e.g. by the wrong means or when it’d be improper due to that knowledge being of private nature) nor to show deficiency in pursuing it.

Else, it wouldn’t be an advantageous or excellent quality. And that’s what a virtue is. Virtue really can’t be understood as something you can have too much or too little off - that would be a confusion of terms.

In the example of curiosity it would be as I already intimated above not curiosity, but the activity of knowledge seeking that one can have in excess or deficiency. And the virtue in that realm, whatever ones name for it would be, would exactly mean that one isn’t pursuing that activity of knowledge seeking in excess nor in deficency.

Anyhow, whether you agree with it or not, Ms. Jenneth, my main point was that andesh can’t be differentiated from virtue by merit of it denoting “things alinged with one’s Fate / ancestry / true nature”, as there are many conceptions of virtue that would claim just the same to be true. So, andesh seems to be a certain conception of virtue to me, rather than an alternative to the concept of virtue in general.

@Arsia_Elkin

I also never said one shouldn’t act. Action is important.

All ethical virtues basically pertain to action or feelings. They either mean that we are habitually pursuing an action neither in excess nor in deficency, but in the right amount of intensity. Or they mean that we are reacting emotionally to outward stimuli neither in excess nor in deficency, but in the right amount of intensity - which in turn is a precondition to act properly.

Action, thus, is important, but action without virtue leads to not only contributing nothing to society, but invariably will detract from the society of which the virtueless actor is part of.

Virtue is paramount.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

I don’t think the words we use for “virtue” mean the same thing.

[Nicoletta_Mithra]

They don’t need to mean the same thing, to be differing conceptions of virtue. Nor would I claim such. Actually, they shouldn’t mean exactly the same thing, but yet they should be ‘close enough’. It’s not like conceptions (plural!) of virtue are uniform. But, oh well, I guess it’s an academic decision and there are probably political reasons to make them sound as far apart as it goes.

[Diana_Kim]

@Hevaima_Gesakaarin

On the topic of rights:

Caldari corporates have some provisos for things like human rights under Caldari State Basic Laws. However, they are understood to be legal constructs existing as part of the notion that there exists a shared social contract among corporate citizens. They only apply to Caldari citizens.

Asserting rights are fundamental or inherent seems arrogant to me. It’s taking a legal construct created by people and saying it applies to everyone at all times – even those not part of the society in which such conception of rights was formulated.

Well, actually I agree with it… partly, but in this case, we can say that the laws guarantee certain CITIZEN RIGHTS, that people earn by merit of being citizen. Corporations and other citizens are obliged to provide certain services and guarantee certain possibilities for people who work for the corporation. It is like a contracts. But as for every contract, rights come with duties and obligations.

There are greater rights for upper managers and lower rights for lower workers. Every merit, every position, every status comes with their own duties and rights.

And still, there are simply no such thing as “HUMAN right”, as there is simply no any right that will be guaranteed to a random human for just the fact of their existing. Just because there is no service provider that a random human being will be obliged to in order to recieve any guarantee from the said service provider.

As I have stated in a diffrent discussoin, typically the concept of “rights” is invoked by those who want to be entitled to something they aren’t entitled to (and likely not having this right at all). Otherwise, they would be referring to the violation of their contract.

Thus, yes, I agree that rights simply cannot be fundamental and inherent. I have probably created a bit misunderstanding in my previous discussion by painting whole word “rights” in a bad light taking the context it has been using. I was wrong, I like your explanation more, and I really should stop just jumping on the pure concept of “right”, but rather on a false concept of “human right” as something fundamental and inherent.

[Hevaima_Gesakaarin]

I think fundamentally the Caldari State is based on political philosophy regarding social contracts. A human being can theoretically be free to do what they want as an individual not part of a society, but living as part of a society requires certain restrictions on those freedoms. Caldari civil and corporate rights therefore define the system under which citizens live under in a social contract that is mutually beneficial to the citizen and the wider society they are part of.

What separates the State from the Federation I find is that we don’t try to push our system we created on others by conflating human made rights that were constructed by human beings as inherent or self-evident. It is however a neat trick of the Gallente to say one is defending “human rights” while on the other hand violating the rights of others to live as they choose.

[Morgana_Tsukiyo]

If you do what you want, if you don´t do what you want, if you do or do not do what you think you want, it is all the same.

Some people like to put chains in themselves and call it “virtues”, “vice” or whatever word they fancy at the moment. It ok too, EVERYTHING is because it could not be otherwise at that moment.

Not happy with something? Do something about it. Or don´t.
Happy with something? Enjoy it! Or don´t

[Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt]

@Anna_Stjornauga

An ECM burst does not cause any physical harm to anything.

Typing here to avoid contributing to yet another Diana Kim thread. An ECM burst does have a chance of disrupting medical devices in individuals that communicate with servers or potentially things like that; it’s less destructive than an EMP for sure but any big area of effect denial attack like that has its consequences.

[Maira_Blackfire]

ECM does indeed have a chance to disrupt medical equipment and course harm that way. See ECM as the lesser more specific targeting cousin to EMP

[Arrendis]

@Jade_Blackwind

I doubt that.

At the very least, you didn’t commit a very basic grammatical error three words before touting being ‘better educated’. So you’ve got that going over him.

[Jade_Blackwind]

@Arrendis

At the very least, you didn’t commit a very basic grammatical error three words before touting being ‘better educated’. So you’ve got that going over him.

To be better educated than me isn’t that high of a bar to clear.

[Avio_Yaken]

@Mizhir

It’s a Vherokior group that combines traditional Vherokior throat singing with modern rock.

But they are quite good so I wouldn’t blame you for enjoying their music.

The track used in the video is called Wolf Totem.
Wolves the mythological creature from Minmatar legends and totems which are often used in Minmatar rituals and other spiritual cases.

Do you have any idea if this group does tours outside Republic or Federation space? Maybe… To a station or three in Venal? And not for any kind of charity, there’s money on the table here to make something like this happen.

[Mizhir]

I did actually promise to organise a gig with them. I guess I have to follow through on that promise.

[Avio_Yaken]

Excellent! Just excellent. Now If you can get to them with the idea and maybe get their manager, you or whatever to contact me, and we can work out all the details.

This very well could be a good attraction for the stations they visit to sell some tickets, food and drinks. And i assume this band has merchandise, therefore i’d think it be a grand opportunity to sell some of that here…I can also arrange for secure transportation of said merchandise so none of the locals get grabby hands all of a sudden