I disagree. It may be futile, but it is not pointless—doubly so from the Matari perspective.
Only by the Amarr. We could no more avoid this particular flare-up than we could alter what Arrach Sarum has for breakfast on a given day.
Any people we can prevent from being taken off-world on Floseswin, any we can keep from being enslaved in the first place, are not nothing. If you think they are, then I encourage you to go down there and tell them that, in person, one by one. Tell the soldiers who fight there that risking—and in many cases, losing—their lives to protect other human beings from the horrors of slavery is nothing.
I would like to believe that that is not what you mean. I would like to believe you are not so callous as to view the safety of millions to be ‘nothing’. But it is what you are saying.
So? Do you do these things for publicity, or do you do them because they are right? If you do them because they are right, then what does it matter if flapping mouths on the IGS know of them? Continue to do what you do, network and build relationships with others you encounter in the course of that.
I still fail to see why you should care enough about their opinions to worry about controlling it.
I can respect that. It’s a reasonable point of view to have.
There wasn’t much that we could do, but there was something. Our leadership could have come to the table much more quickly than they did. And quite frankly, the more that I wonder about these fallacies of pride and incompetence, the more I start to think that we–Matari and Amarr loyalists all–are just playthings of Shakor and Catiz.
People who would have not been in danger of Reclaiming had we not been so full of pride, and had Ushra’Khan not jumped into that warzone deal with the Amarr militia. Although that indiscretion grows distant, we can’t forget whose self-serving choices got us here.
Those lives are not nothing. I agree. But the reason for their potential loss lies with our own as much as with Amarr, and the gains of keeping them safe are cancelled out by the fact that they shouldn’t have needed saving to begin with.
I do them because they’re right. And then I come here and get called a foreigner, or told that I push my Gallente views on others, or that my Gallente ass needs to go back to the Federation. You all don’t even take the time to get my title right.
So long as the Amarr Empire continues to exist in its current form, they will always pose a threat not only to our people, but to the wider cluster. Their current attempt at subjecting Floseswin is a steadfast reminder that.
My Insult to you, Quatrevaux, is that from your place of safety and comfort you have the gall to dismiss the bravery and valor of the men and women on the ground fighting and dying to protect our people. You consider their sacrifice as worthless. If it were up to you, you would let our people be taken and put in chains, all so you can continue to bark against the Sanmatar and prove a point. The same, self serving criticism you level at Ushra’Khan applies to you. They at least have are willing to get their hands dirty.
If you want to prove me wrong, I have a rifle and suit of body armor that you can use. Otherwise, you can shut the ■■■■ up.
No. I think that their sacrifice is worthless–and that is a critique not of their hard work, but of our government’s failure to account for their needs long before Sarum got involved.
If it were up to me, no Sarum fleet would ever have flown into Floseswin in the first place. And I was far from the only one working toward this goal. But our efforts went unheeded.
And you, Aloga, dismiss the hard work that we did in the run-up to the conflict. You consider our efforts as worthless, just because it didn’t involve blood and soil. Typical rhetoric. Nothing matters but bullets and killmarks, right?
My hands have been dirty for months. But that work doesn’t matter, of course, if my hands are stained with ink rather than blood.
I’d love to. But I’m a father. I don’t endanger my own life just for the pride points. Tell you what. If I suit up and help you on the ground, and you find my assistance worthy enough, you’ll help me toward my work in a future project of my choosing. How’s that sound?
I’m saying that we should have been in the Inner Council before it happened.
(“It” being Sarum’s announcement of a Reclaiming.)
You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m entitled to mine.
Doing so would have encouraged this behavior, not prevented it. ‘If you make extremely vicious threats, you will get what you want.’
No. You do not prevent behavior by rewarding it.
When last I checked, the vast majority of Minmatar in Floseswin are not Ushra’Khan, and could not have influenced the Ushra’Khan in the slightest degree. That that same majority—the residents of the Floseswin system—should never have needed saving in the first place does not make answering that need now that it has occurred ‘pointless’.
They did not ask for this. We did not ask for this. The Ushra’Khan and even the Amarr loyalists whose foolish ‘treaty’ provided a pretext did not ask for this. The only people responsible for Arrach Sarum’s decision are Arrach Sarum, and the Empress who gave him the authority to make it.
And? You have not once addressed me by my proper title. Should I be annoyed by this? Should I be angry with you? I’m not.
After all, I haven’t even told you what my proper title is, as the daughter of our Chieftain’s brother. Nor have you, so far as I have seen, indicated what your proper title is. If I have missed it, and I am to be using it, then I apologize of course, but it seems a strange thing to emphasize when this is the first I can recall that you’ve brought it up.
If you do these things because they are right, then do them. That you come here and are called names you do not like by people who do not impact your life outside of this place should be a completely separate matter.
Strongmen and abusers get their way through the threat or application of violence or other harm. They are more likely to think they can get away with it if they think their target is weak and vulnerable, and when they don’t face any consequences for their action. When you enable that behavior by submitting, you’re only ensuring that they are going to keep doing it, because they know it will get them what they want.
By blaming the Republic for being invaded or for imposing sanctions, for, ‘not coming to the table fast enough’, by blaming it on pride, what you are doing is blaming the victim and excusing the abuser. “Oh, if I hadn’t been so prideful, he wouldn’t have hurt me. It’s my fault I got hit.” This is a mindset I know very well, it’s one I used to have.
The right response is to not give in to threats. To not excuse bad behavior. Yes, fighting back is hard and painful in the short term, but giving up just to make the hurt stop won’t stop it from happening again in the future. It has to be shown that this kind of behavior is not acceptable.
Getting the sanctions dropped is very easy. Make up for the harm that was done, to the people of Kahah and now the people of Floseswin. Admit that these actions were immoral and wrong. Repent. It is Amarr’s pride that keeps them from doing that. It is Amarr’s pride that is causing people hurt. Submitting and giving them what they want in the name of peace will only bolster that pride and make them see these choices as a viable strategy.
I’ve stated that I’m a clinical psychologist, and I sign most of my official statements using the title of “Dr” or “PhD.” It’s also noted in my public bio. If you know I’m Krusual, then you know I’m a doctor.
It doesn’t typically bother me when people get it wrong, but I’ve dealt with too many insults here over the past couple of days to keep letting anything slide.
It does make it pointless until Ushra’Khan are held accountable for their self-serving idiocy. I have yet to see that happen.
And the people who gave him the ability to make it.
I am not excusing the abuser. Not once have I said that the Empire shouldn’t pay for its crimes.
Are you really conflating domestic abuse with a war and humanitarian crisis?
I said that.
I said that.
I said that.
Once again: It’s not a critique of the people. It’s a critique of those of us who failed them.
It’s certainly sounded like you’ve been directing your comments to the Federation and the Republic, not the Empire, and that the war is their fault for not dropping the sanctions, rather than the Empire’s for its willingness to commit atrocities in the first place.
But whatever. Clearly I’m misinterpreting whatever you’re actually trying to say.
This is not some two-sided issue where both sides are at fault. Only one side is. If you’re trying to cast this as a two-sided issue, then you are excusing the perpetrator.
I am not. I am saying that the Amarr Empire is at fault and should be held accountable for its actions, not only in Floseswin, but in Kahah, and in every sense that regards their continued enslavement of Minmatar and other populations such as the Ealur.
Yet the world is not nearly as black-and-white as you would like to see it, Samira. The Republic made mistakes. The Republic is prideful. The Republic cares more about its pride than its people. The Federation cares more for economic and political gain than any people, especially the Minmatar, both within its borders and without. And the State is content to allow its Empire ally to continue on as it always has.
There were plenty of options that could have averted this disaster. No one took them.
Heroes and villains don’t exist in cluster politics. The Empire is not the villain; neither is it the hero. The Republic is not the hero; neither is it the villain. These labels, these black-and-white ideals of right and wrong, do not apply.
There are no heroes or villains anywhere in this. Just power-hungry politicians, hurt and wrathful victims, and broken people.
I have not called the Republic and Federation the hero or free of mistakes. I am saying that they have so far, for the most part, made the right choices in this specific conflict. There are many other things they have done before or apart from this that have been utterly wrong.
At most, I believe I have referred to you as ‘Pilot Quatrevaux’, which I’d think is just as valid. Though I think I’ve been addressing you directly, and so not used a title at all. Again, if I’ve misaddressed you, I apologize for my error.
No, it does not. If a building is burning down, running into the fire to save those inside is not ‘pointless’ because the firefighters haven’t stopped to yell at the electrician who screwed up the wiring.
I think you mean ‘the excuse’. As soon as he had authority over the Empire’s forces in-theatre, he had that ability.
And the part where you claim the Republic and Federation should have dropped sanctions to prevent this—rewarding the Empire’s bad behavior in order to placate them—is where you are categorically wrong. The analogy with domestic abuse is perfectly apt and fitting. If anything, sanctions should be tightened.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding here about the role of Holders, it is to improve the lot of those subject to them and lend their strength to those they are subject to. Democratic mores, or juvenile heretical ramblings serve only to obfuscate.
Whether the right actions were taken is the wrong point to dwell on, were they in the interests of those the leaders who made them are meant to serve. The Federation and the Republic undertook an act of economic aggression upon the Empire, in response to punishment of imperial subjects within imperial borders.
This aggression was undertaken with no legal basis, no apparent notion that it may have consequences much less any preparation to deal with them should they occur, and worse; those who should be responsible for their people met events without clarity in word or action.
We find ourselves now at a new reality, the leaders of the Federation and the Republic can act in the interests of their people and find a détente based on the legal framework of the Yulai Accords (amended or otherwise). Or they can double down and continue to court a war, hoping that despite their own clear lack of judgement or resolve, and the decisive military and diplomatic action already taken by their graces Lord Arrach Sarum and Lady Hamideh Kador respectively. That the Empire will capitulate to their demands… based on sanctions.
Despite my own confidence in my liege and in His Grace Lord Sarum, I concede the only thing that answer with certainty whose leaders best served their people, is time.