One Missile to Replace Them All


(Isaiah Harms) #1

Dear CCP (read as: you idiots),

Why did you decide to make all other medium size missiles irrelevant? With the introduction of Rapid Light Missile Launcher there simply is no point in using anything else - for missiles.

Now… If you intended to replace HAM’s, and Heavy missiles - I WANT MY SKILL POINTS BACK.

Just run the numbers. How many cruisers are using frigate sized launchers with cruiser range? Isn’t that a bit unfair? A weapon system that does an acceptable damage out to 30km (or greater) with great application?

There is no reason NOT to use RLML. The reload issue is a paltry inconvenience. Motion: Make RLML apply their damage to frigate sized vehicles only, and piss poor damage to cruiser hulls, OR reduce their ranges to frigate ranges (under 20km, preferably 15km).


(Chaos Ellec0n) #2

Another one…?


(Magnus Witchspace) #3

Nerfing missiles? I just lost grip and soiled myself.


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #4

well… this is just wrong and shows a complete ignorance on the weapon systems in question.

HAMS and HMs while still in need of application tweaks are quite viable as weapon systems. I probably use them more than RLML unless i’m in large fleets. but in solo small and med sized the weaknesses of the system show through.

wow you know less than i thought… they are at frigate ranges… the range is determined by the missile not the launcher


(Isaiah Harms) #5

well… this is just wrong and shows a complete ignorance on the weapon systems in question.

HAMS and HMs while still in need of application tweaks are quite viable as weapon systems

With ER and EV numbers about 140-150 a 900 DPS HAM Tengu can be tanked by a 100mn AB Legion that is webbed, orbiting said Tengu at 450m/s.

HAMS and HMs while still in need of application tweaks

Yeah… Press “ze missile button.”

However, Lights have a EV of 200, and an ER of 50. There simply isn’t an option to outrun these missiles (unless you’re an interceptor).

Ranges
Orthrus lobs fury lights between 40-60 km (Hardly frigate range, unless the OP Retribution is your comparison). Gila (a hull with no missile bonus) can project light missiles to 29km (fury) and 39km (faction).

Again, far beyond the gun ranges application ranges of light weapons. You can claim that beams, rails, and projectiles can hit to those ranges. Indeed they may with the right hull and T2 ammo. The price for extended range is they lose DPS and tracking ability, while Light missiles trade absolutely nothing.

this is just wrong and shows a complete ignorance

If you’re going to engage in rhetoric with me, you better bring your numbers to the table. I’ve fired more missile since 2007 than any other ammo.

When you can fire a missile that applies perfect damage to ANY size ship, why use anything else? That’s what I call overpowered


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #6

yes clearly that shows an issue with the missiles not 100mn anythings

exact same range as a frigate fit with light missiles.

except they don’t…

also without factoring in reload time HAMs will always do more DPS to tackled BC+ and they do more applied dps to tackled cruisers so long as you have one unbonused paint in the entire fleet.

lets take a standard AB legion for example even w/o factoring in reload you will be dealing more damage to it with hams if you have it webbed than if you were using RLML. factor in the reload and you no longer even need the paint.

this is why in large fleets they do out class the other cruiser missile systems. you can easily burst through enemy logistics and hold your own tank when you enter re-load. and they can be shot at any size target. but in smaller fleets where every bit of dps you can squeeze out maters they start to fall short if you are not targeting frigates.


(Isaiah Harms) #7

No. You won’t. I know. I have done the numbers. I have flown my legion against HAM ships (tackled and webbed). My single repper tanked all 900 dps (he was overheating). The only reason is because HAM’s WILL NOT APPLY damage like a Light missile.

It seems - my misguided friend - that you think this argument is about factors other than application values of light missiles. RLML fit cruisers have the DPS, range, and application necessary to combat frigates, and peers with absolutely no reason to come within neut/scram/web ranges.

Just to use an extreme an Orthrus can project 430 DPS with faction lights to 83km. It can burn at 3192 m/s (OH) and warp disrupt at 54km. After obtaining initial point a good pilot will operate between 39-44km (non OH point ranges) and kite around for as long as necessary. Inside the 54km combat zone the Orthrus’s drones boost DPS to 610 (703 OH) with RLML’s.

With such perfect application values, why use HAM’s, or Heavies? Both of which apply worse, and use up so much CPU that your tank must drop.

I’ve been around kiting combat a long time. Application is what matters. I truly believe the light missiles apply too well to large ships (which aren’t their intended target). Damage from a warhead’s explosion radius should be tied directly to mass of the target impacted. The payload of a light warhead should tickle the tank of a battleship. To penetrate the defensive screens/armor of a larger target should require a larger warhead - can we please get away from this “death by a thousand pinpricks” idea?


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #8

cognates and yes you apply more dps to an ab legion with a paint if you use hams rather than lights… you apply more damage to BC+ than you do with lights. you have more dps with hams and more sustain with hams.

this is why you use hams.

yes if it’s kiting you want to use RLML this is more to do with HMs being garbage than anything


(Isaiah Harms) #9

I beg your pardon, but you’re wrong. https://zkillboard.com/kill/69795443/


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #10

… that’s an orthris it just needs enough dps to beat the tank and then it can take as long as it likes. or are your trying to say that the orth is a balanced and as such justifiable measure to use


(Isaiah Harms) #11

Dude… I had all day to kill the HAM Tengu. He had to stop OH because he about burned out. I was webbed by the Tengu.

See, 100mn AB accelerates so slow an MWD ship can easily close to tackle range.

The fight against the Orthrus gang wasn’t even a close contest. I could not tank their application at all. This is not a problem with the Orthrus. It’s an issue with RLML launchers permitting Light missiles to do significant “burst” damage, with absolutely no way to mitigate that damage via speed.

It’s truly a beautifully OP combination. Incidentally the description of an RLML launcher reads: “Launcher for cruisers intended to counter fast frigates, can only be fitted with regular and advanced light missiles.”

The only problem is it also counters fast cruisers. So I guess I need two legions. An MWD/AB brick that ensures the kite cruiser can just run away, and the dessie blobs can catch me, and the 100mn AB legion that works on any peer that’s non-RLML.

Great. From now on I’ll just hotdrop RLML ships.


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #12

and yet they are hard countered by buffer tanks. you went out in a T3 with less than 24k ehp and got hard countered. RLML would not do much against a 112kehp legion. Your powergrid was tied up in that 100mn for speed. in exchange you lost buffer. you would have been strong against standard cruiser weapons and up trying to track you but not weapons built to apply to fast targets.

RLML are not the best in every situation they just countered your fit

basically anything bigger than a cruiser your better off with HAMs and any cruiser that can survive 60s against RLML your better off with hams. so yes there are reasons not to use RLML


(Barbara Nichole) #13

Tip to the OP: In the pursuit of winning friends and persuading others one might want to remember that calling people,“you idiots” hardly ever brings your target audience, in this case CCP, over to your side of the argument…


(Isaiah Harms) #15
  1. Buffer slows you down.
  2. Kite ships love slow targets.

This can be proven should you dare to place your money where your mouth is. Mail me ingame, we can arrange a solo. You fly buffer, I’ll fly kite.

Admitted it is a calculated risk. CCP “done messed up” and this needs fixed. I’ve played EVE (especially missiles) to understand a lot of the numbers that most don’t. I’d be happy if they’d join the argument.


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #16

only armor…


(Stitch Kaneland) #17

Maybe because its a tengu shooting kin at a legion? Also, if the tengu was ■■■■ fit, it may not even had a proper fit for application. A single web is not an application fit btw.

You mainly seem upset that your legion was countered. Did you expect 100mn to be unhittable by anything? I hate RLML spam, but at the same time, for those who cant mobilize a bhaal, or long webs, RLML spam is an effective counter to solo 100mn legion. Their tank relies on sig tanking and are useful for tanking carriers. However as light missiles are for taking down frigates or small sig ships, it counters the sig/speed tanking of 100mn.

Higher buffer combined with active tank is how you beat RLML. They countered your fit, thats all there is to it.


(Caleb Seremshur) #18

yean I’ve run the numbers and the typical RLML setup with bonuses to missiles does between 18k to 28k raw damage before any mitigation is factored. You then have a 40s cooldown where you reload your missiles thus losing all dps. RLML are not the optimal weapon solution, they are certainly very good but you need to treat them like arty, if you can’t wipe the enemy off within a single clip you will get in to trouble.

HAM on the other hand do similar dps but its sustained, 10s reload to another damage type, reasonable application to any target scram webbed. HML remain the black sheep of the missile family, only really useful on range bonused medium ships and RHML.


(Nico Boru) #19

Grabs a pick ax and shovel to harvest the grand vein of salt here.


(Soldarius) #20

I feel that the range of light missiles is too long. The fact that your webbed cruiser couldn’t use speed to mitigate a missile that is designed to kill small fast targets is silly. Of course it couldn’t.

I agree that heavy and heavy assault missiles need an application buff. Not a big one. Just a small one.


(Chan'aar) #21

oh hell yes!