Probably been discussed ad nauseum. Anyway, from what I think I just found out by experimentation, heavy missiles (I used RHMLs) are in every way better than torpedoes against BS sized targets. They do more dps, and even have more range.
Comments?
I don’t really know the differences between those two, but I think torpedoes get even better bonuses with a Stealth Bomber than a BS.
It also depends on skills. If your skills are the same in each area, then the HML might be slightly better in DPS vs a BS sized target. But you also have to look at the explosion radius on a torpedo vs the explosion radius on a HM.
A base Nova torpedo has a radius of 450m and EX velocity of 71m/sec.
Vs the Nova Heavy missile, which has a 140m explosion radius and a 81m/sec EX velocity.
And a Scorpion BS has a sig radius of 480m without mods or speed… You arent getting the full damage of the torpedo ON the BS. Or a smaller BS, like the Typhoon and its 330m sig. You would be losing about 27% of your damage IF it is sitting still. More if it is moving at max speed under normal thrust.
The joys of missiles and explosive weapons, you have to factor in size of target, and speed.
A torpedo with the right mods can be down right devastating to a battleship sized target.
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Torps are better if you can make them apply.
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It seems to me that RHMLs are way better overall then torps. The only application I see for torps is stealth bombers as stated above and select few situations.
Heavy missles hit better on far wider variety of targets, or require less precision modules to hit the same targets for full or close to full damage, thus allowing far better overall fits.
Its something I wish CCP should take a look at in their balance passes. Either leave torpedoes basically as they are but significantly bump their damage, which might make stealth bombers very OP, so the stealth bombers torpedo bonus may need to be toned down, or give them better precision, flight time, etc. which is not very good because that will make them just like RHML except maybe the alpha, they will be too alike.
That’s my point. It shouldn’t be that way, otherwise why use torps at all? Just stay with medium sized weapon systems.
Again, that’s my point. Seems little to no reason to use torps, ever.
Torps and citadel missiles in general have been in a horrible state for years. The whole missile damage system has needed a rework for even longer but keeps getting passed over.
Currently a missile system is either too good, or garbage simply due to the calculations being done to determine application, specifically the explosion velocity. Unlike guns where the primary application variable is motion in relation to your opponent, missiles primarily care about how fast you’re moving with sig being used to create a ratio of the base damage.
dmg = Base * min ( 1, s/e, (s/e * Ve/Vt)^drf )
As you can see the damage will be the base damage if they are slower than the explosion velocity and smaller sig, but for anything smaller than the sig of your missiles (unlike guns) you are immediately reduced to a max of a ratio of the two sig factors no matter what, that means unlike guns, missiles will never be able to apply fully to anything smaller than them. Throw in any amount of velocity over the heavily nerfed missile velocity numbers from years past and that number becomes even worse. More so when you realize most small ships can actually outrun many missiles larger than rockets/light.
Edit- drf btw is a damage reduction factor tied to each missile type. This varies between t1 and t2 counterparts as well.
TL; DR - missile systems (specifically torps/XL systems) have been a horrible mess for years, either OP or worthless. Ever since the heavy handed nerfs from years past it has always been better to use a smaller missile to damage a same-size ship. Exception being citadel (XL) missiles when damaging other stationary capitals/structures. The whole thing needs to be reworked, and I for one hope CCP gets to it sooner rather than later.
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As a rare Minmatar missile boater, I agree with Mr Nasar Vyron, on the missile topic.
Missiles are in a bad place, you either have OP light missiles against small ships, or way under powered larger missiles against larger ships.
Sure a Typhoon can do decent damage to a BS in a volley… but god help you if it is BC or smaller in size. If you face off against a good arty sniper fit BC, it will rip you to bits long before your torpedoes have any meaningful effect on him. But if you run into an arty sniper fit frigate, you will most likely one shot him with your light missiles long before he comes into range.
I enter an internal debate every time I look at my skills, on weather I want to get skill injectors and just max out my gun tree or continue to work in my missile lines. Joys of being Minmatar… I have options.
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That’s a big if though
torpedoes are in a bad place because target painters are not used often. 2 heated target painters on a non bonused ship double the sig of the target. web em down and you can apply almost full to cruisers.
I’ll go with the unpopular opinion. I think RHML are trash if you want to try to kill a battleship or any other tanky ship (like a T3). Torps don’t take much effort to apply to a battleship. Use a grappler and a missile computer or rigor and if you really want to be sure, use crash.
I’ve used torpedo’s for years on battleships and killed frigate gangs, dessie gangs (T3D’s), cruisers and other battleships with them. You just need to fit for it. No you cannot go max tank with just a scram for tackle and have torps apply (as is this case with most people who complain about missile application).
Rage torps will seriously ravage battleships and battlecruisers. But again, you need to fit for them to apply.
Here you can see me using torps with an RNI to great effect: https://youtu.be/w4BeyL-7kR0
Here you can see me using torps with a typhoon (at least in the beginning of the video): https://youtu.be/GGgtB2UnYDo
The main thing torps need are fitting adjustments and maybe slightly more base range (they have the same range as HAMs). They’re the short range, high damage weapon (like blasters, autocannons, HPL and HAMs), yet they have more fitting requirements than cruise missiles (which are the long range weapon like artillery, HML, rail guns and beams). They need their fitting adjusted slightly, especially when you need to put 8 on them on things like an RNI. Could they use more application? I suppose, but nothing significant, like a 5% adjustment, but i’ve never had much issue with them. If you need more tank when using them, bring a friend to give you better application (like a bellicose/huginn etc). For solo, you fit them like a solo artillery ship, you sacrifice most of your tank for the insane dps/alpha (that has no tracking).
Not at all. I rather enjoy ‘unpopular’ opinions or ‘minority reports.’
That’s an awful lot of mid slots to use just to be able to apply damage to a large target (something torps should be able to hit well by default), and I don’t need to use all those slots with RHMLs and can fit other things. In many/most instances you’ll be crippling your ship in some way just to apply damage to a large target.
Also, for what it’s worth, the in-game fitting tool shows RHML doing more damage than torps. Since it doesn’t know what I’d be shooting at (could be a structure or a capital), I’m assuming that’s just raw theoretical max damage, not taking into account lack of target painters or whatever else.
Still, your opinion is valid, and I’d like to hear more.
EDIT: You certainly did well in your videos.
Most battleships have flexible enough mids (or rigs) to make it work. Also, HAMs and HML aren’t much different and require the same considerations. You need a web/scram to apply with most large sig cruisers using HAMs, but for things like a scyfi or stabberfleet, you’ll most likely need scram/web/missile comp (or rigor). Not to mention the same application mods if you expect to run across frigs.
I’d also argue, that depending on the battleship, if you are strictly talking battleship vs battleship, you may only need 1 application mod (not including the grappler). Things like the typhoon, RNI and Golem all have application bonuses baked in, which reduces the need for additional mods (though i like to push the envelope and go overboard to apply ridiculous amounts to frigs).
RHML show a higher paper dps, but not actual damage, especially over time (as the reload destroys any chance of breaking through an active tank). Torpedo’s have far more alpha than RHML ship. The RNI for example is the 2nd highest damage volley ship in the game when using torpedos (behind the barghest). Using faction missiles, a Raven navy has a 7100 volley (918dps, sustained, no 30s reloads here). Using Rage torps, you get a volley of 8452 with 1079 dps sustained (before drones).
Not trying to self-promote, i just have a lot of videos on this exact discussion:
Here i have a fight against a ferox in my RNI and i’m using rage torps. Getting 4000-5000 volleys off. You can’t get anywhere close to that using RHML.
RHML have their place, like if you want to kite or squeeze in an active tank. But if you’re looking for pure carnage to break through most tanks, use torps and sacrifice a little tank.
Do note that you are comparing large and medium ammo. Of course the medium ammo is going to apply better to large targets.
I think the comparison is fine, because it not only applies better to large targets, it also does more damage. It also out-ranges (all of this from my perspective of course - the poster above is no doubt a much better player than I am).
I was also comparing medium ammo against medium ships vs large ammo against large ships. The heavy missiles can also apply all their damage to medium targets (as far as I know, anyway) without having to use a bunch of slots up for application.
I thought application was just for trying to apply your ammo to a SMALLER ship size than what it was intended to hit. That’s the way it should work in my mind, anyway.
Heavy missile launchers (not RHML) and by extension heavy missiles are actually terrible in the cruiser/battlecruiser line-up for application. They got nerfed 5 (ish?) years ago through their application. Things like a HML drake take multiple application mods to apply to most cruisers (unless you have a gang that webs them down). There’s a reason you only see RLML caracals, because HML are terrible both in application dps and their fitting doesn’t even compare to RLML.
The only reason RHML are good, is because of how RHML are designed (high RoF). Combined with the fact battleships actually have the mids/rigs/lows to give them decent application, along with specialty modules (like the grappler).
Well.
“The more you know.”
They are completely incomparable things like we can’t compare boxers and kickboxers in sport.
The torpedos are good and well balanced for stealth bombers. You can easily build a frigate with 450 or above dps! Stealth bombers are designed to attack big targets like BS or bigger by being very fragile versus smaller targets. This is the balance - you can’t ride with over 500dps other frigates. The balance is also in the fact you can’t fit addition Target Painter on SB. In SB fleets you just need a Painter ship for this. Most torpedos’s explosion radius is 400m which is average signature radius of most BS. It can apply maximum damage to BS if their speed is 0, otherwise - lower. Torpedoes have at least two times lower speed and range, which are designed to attack from close range - a PVP tool. The large missiles have bigger speed, lower explosion radius (near 150m) and high fly time. They are better for PVE, by damaging Cruisers, BS and BS. From PVP point of view they are broken or nerfed.
Torpedoes doing better performance or dps on Stealth Bombers only, while Missiles (or LM) on any other available ship.
Not only are you comparing large vs. medium, you are also comparing short-range to long-range.
That’s an irrelevant point if I figure one (the more easily-accessible one in terms of skill) is always better than the other in every situation.