Hi, I’m fitting a Tengu and, depending on the missions I will do, PvE or PvP, I’ll use heavy assault or heavy missiles.
So I was taking a look at the missile rigs (I’ve always used lasers, projectile or hybrid since yesterday) but I’m confused by the complexity of the argument.
For example, If I want to extend the range I can use Hydraulic Bay Thrusters or Rocket Fuel Cache Partition, but the first improves missile velocity, while the second improves missile flight time. Numerically the result is the same (same range) but modifying different parameters. Why, and which one to choose?
Same if you want to increase DPS: you have Bay Loading Accelerator to improve rate of fire, Warhead Calefaction Catalyst to improve damage but also Warhead Flare Catalyst and Warhead Rigor Catalyst. The first improves explosion velocity and the second decreases explosion radius, but I don’t know what they do and I can’t see their impact on DPS because the fitting tool does not show and numbers remains the same.
So I only have 3 rig slots, what have I to choose to best dps?
Missile velocity is good for reducing the delay from when missiles are launched until they hit the target.
likewise with RoF will increase the DPS but will also make you use more missiles to achieve the same damage as you would by just increasing it with flat +DMG. As for the Flare and Rigor rigs they help with damage application (makes it easier to hit smaller targets, like frigates and destroyers, ever so slightly increases the damage done).
Ok, so if I understand correctly, to extend range HBT is better than RFC, while to increase DPS is better use Calefaction over BLA.
And which to prefer between flare and rigor to help hit smaller targets?
You can read about the effects of Explosion Radius and Explosion speed here
Hi
I’ll try to give you some pointers with regards to missiles.
For a HAM Tengu, or a HAM any ship, if you are going for pure range increase, your best bet is to use a Missile Guidance Computer with a range script, 2nd best is the Flight Time rig. the velocity rig, while it increases your range it does so less then a pure range rig would, it is better suited for missile ships such as those that use cruise missiles that kill their targets from 100+ km, or torpedo ships because torpedoes move really slow. It also slightly improves your DPS application vs fast moving targets, but really slightly and you have far better options for that so do not use it in this capacity.
On a Heavy Missile ( not HAMs) Tengu, Velocity rig may be OK, but you will still get better range out of flight time rig or missile guidance computer + range script.
Rigor Rigs greatly improve your application to small targets. Situationally you may want to use 1 Rigor and 1 Flare Catalyst if the mission / site you are doing contains mostly cruiser size and below targets, but on average, most of the time you are better off going with 2x Rigor Rigs, or 1x Rigor + 1x Missle Guidance Computer with Precision Script, or even 1x Rigor + 1 enhancer, though enhancer giving you least total application bonus, it increases everything by a little bit.
Alternatively, use 1x Rigor + precision ammo. The nice thing about missle launchers is that missles come not just in all damage types, but also various DPS - Precision - Range variants and the reload time on HAM launchers is only 10 seconds, so in PvE at least, you can freely switch ammo as needed. Switching ammo mid combat will free up 1 of your fitting slots where normally you would have 1x Rigor Rig + Computer or enhancer or flarte rig or any other combination, now you will only need the 1x Rigor + switch the ammo.
On average, but not situationally always, for DPS application vs small fast moving targets, 2x Rigor Rig is your best bet.
Interesting. thank you both.
I forgot to add, in the game, play in the fitting simulator. If you are looking for range you can jsut switch different modules and hover your mouse over active, loaded missile launcher and it will tell you its range, this way you can see the effects.
With DPS application its not so clear cut. A rule of thumb, and mind you this is more of jsut a guideline then any set rule, and it changes a lot depending on targets and situation, is that with HAMs or Heavy missiles, you need 2 modules or 1 module and precision missiles, to comfortably hit very small and fast moving targets. Be it rigs or rig + module or module + ammo, or rig + ammo. Aim for 2.
On large missiles such as cruise or torpedoes, you will need a combination of 3, and if you want to hit small targets with torps, you will need that velocity very badly.
However, you should also beware of hull bonuses, if you have a hull bonus that gives you a 25% bonus to explosion radius for example, then you can count that as a “module or rig” within the above stated combinations. Thus on some cruiser or battlecruiser sized ships that use medium missiles and have a hull bonus, you can make due with using just the hull bonus and switching ammo, not needing to fit any of the precidion rigs or modules at all, you will be hitting slightly worse but have more tank or utility or mobility or whatever else you want because of the extra available slots.
Great tips, thank you.
I’ll be in a Tengu strategic cruiser that have bonuses for heavy and heavy assault missiles.
I’m only still a bit confused on what to choose between them. I already know that HAM have shorter range and faster RoF while HM have slower RoF and longer range, but I can’t understand if you do more damage with HAM or HM (I’m still training proper skills for both, so I can’t see full difference).
Do you thing it’s right as a guideline to use HAM for PvP and HM for PvE?
In general HAMs are much better. The regular heavy missiles have better range but the DPS loss is not worth it. There are very few situations in the game where heavy missiles are better then heavy assault missiles. Also keep in mind everything I said about the modules etc. its all assuming level 5 skills, including level 5 missile support skills, not having those will make a big difference on fit effectiveness and you may need to fit differently.
Tengu DPS bonus is kinetic, so it limits it a bit as well. You can use any damage type missile on it, but you will lose out a lot of DPS when you go against kinetic resistant targets, and there are a lot of those in the game. this is one of the places where Loki comes out ahead of the Tengu. Loki also has more fitting freedom as it is a good ship with either shield or armor tank, unlike the Tengu. Armor ships have less space for damage mods, so do a bit less DPS, but they have a lot of utility space open up which is necessary for PvP and some PvE content. Utility on Tengu cuts into tank.
So DPS are much more important than HP? Because HM have better HP, almost double than HAM.
Can you make some examples?
For the moment I’m training everything to level 4, in a second moment I’ll train to level 5.
Which are the missile support skills? Just to check that I know them all and train everything I need.
As a general rule: Missile speed is king, missile damage is king, and signature radius influences application the most. So hydraulic thrusters, calefaction, and rigors and the rigs you want to prefer using.
To go into a bit more detail:
Missile speed influences how fast it takes your damage to get to the target, and also whether your missiles can catch a target at all. Missiles biggest drawback is not having instant damage application like turrets do, so it should be clear why this is a good thing.
Damage is better than RoF if you only have to pick one because it means you will be doing more with less. On things like rapid light missile launchers this is doubly true, if your RoF is too high there’s a good chance you will waste shots firing at something that is either about to die, burning out of range, etc, in the heat of a fight it can be hard to keep track of this, and they have a very long reload time which could make it a fatal mistake.
Explosion radius is, loosely, your missiles vs their signature radius. This is a calculation that is always done, as opposed to explosion velocity, which is your missiles explosion velocity vs target’s speed. If you have good explosion radius you will always do more damage. If you have good explosion velocity, you will do more damage to things that are moving than you would normally. It’s pretty complicated if you get into the math so I hope that makes sense lol, but the gist is, both are important, but radius is the more important of the two. Because of the stacking penalties, it’s typically better to go 1 rigor 1 flare instead of 2 rigors, unless you are dualweb fit. Rapid lights don’t need any application modules, HAMs might, and especially HMLs do.
HAMs are typically used more than HMLs in pvp because they have better application and damage. That being said their range is quite short, which makes them difficult. HMLs can be made to work, usually on ships that have a built in application bonus like the Loki or the drake navy issue, but are not very common otherwise because they lose a lot of dps to poor application. In pve their application may not be as big of an issue, but their overall lack of dps compared to HAMs will be troublesome if you are trying to do certain DED sites.
To answer your most recent questions:
I’m not sure if you mean HP as in alpha damage, or as in missile HP.
Missile hp is almost never a concern. The only thing that can harm them is smartbombs or bombs from stealth bombers, which may kill 1 flight out of every 3 or 4.
Alpha damage is a whole other type of play. HMLs have high alpha compared to the rapid fire nature of HAMs, but again, they lose a lot of it to poor application. But in general with alpha vs dps there isn’t a clear winner. Both have situations they perform well in, and both have situations they perform poorly in.
HMLs are excellent on a kiting fit drake navy issue. In fleets the loki with HMLs performs well. The cerberus with HMLs is an extremely powerful fleet ship as well.
The missile support skills are:
Guided Missile Precision
Missile Bombardment
Missile Projection
Missile Launcher Operation
Rapid Launch
Warhead Upgrades
Great tips, thank you Cnda_Adian
DPS is better, yes, and I disagree with the guy above about ROF. I don’t care if I miss a missle or 2 cause it overshot, missiles are dirt cheap to the point that you will make an entire day worth of misses literally in a couple kills, so maybe 30 seconds or so. So this is completely negligible and irrelevant.
Now the thing that does matter, is especially for Loki and Tengu, is that they get their best DPS from the high ROF, and they have limited cargo space. When you go on prolonged outings, like wormhole diving etc. and stay out for a couple days at a time, and carry all these different kinds of missles with you, then you don’t have much room left for loot, and also you may have to cut your trip short cause you will run out of ammo sooner. But if you just stay in HS or surrounding areas and always come back to HS or your base of operations, then this also becomes irrelevant.
Some event mobs are better taken out at 50-60 km+. Not that they can’t be done in a Loki or Tengu, I do them in Gila or Loki, but its easier to do so at range. Anything that I can do in a Loki can also be done in a Tengu.
Also some sites in Wormholes as well, but don’t worry about that for now unless you intend to jump straight into them, if not, then by the time you will get to know these things you will much better know what to do and how to fit.
4s is OK, just be wary, you may have to slow down, occasionally warp out and come back, take it easy, if you get overconfident you will lose your ship.
I know, actually that’s my combat style. I’ve been in Eve for just a little over a year and initially I completely wrong approach, training skills horizontally, just to buy and try all the ships I found beautiful. So now I have maybe 20 ships, from frigates to battleships, but almost all at lvl 3 or so. So since 4 months I started to train skills vertically to bring all my skills and all the ships at least at lvl 4, stopped using all the ships and concentrate on one ship at time.
I already brought my Rokh at lvl 4, then started working on Tengu and I still need more than 2 months before everything is ready.
Unfortunately my first instinct is “oh Loki, beautiful, I want one, which are the minimum skills required to use it?”. First year is gone this way, but it was the wrong way, now I need time to correct the approach.
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