Torpedo Balancing - and Explosion Velocity

Hi,

I have rejoined EVE after a 6-year absence… and a fair amount has changed. Cruise Missiles boosted, a Navy Drake and use of Drake hull for Tech 2 Nighthawk, more Modules, Tech 3 destroyers, etc etc. CCP has certainly been moving in the right direction since 2012. But I am not yet sure whether or not I stay on. I feel that there is still a lot of work to be done regarding Missiles, and Torpedoes in particular, not to mention the lack of Tech2 versions of the old Tier3 battleships and Tech 3 battlecruisers/batt/eships. While Torpedoes do still get some use, their use has fallen somewhat since the Cruise Missile boost. Not that Cruise Missiles are overpowered, this just means that Torpedoes need some Love.

The range is the main issue with Torpedoes relative to other missiles. A Rocket has a base range of 4.5km. A Heavy Assault Missile has a base range of 9km. But a Torpedo also has a base range of 9km, despite it being a battleship-class weapon. We should expect it to scale the same as the HAM-Rocket range comparison, meaning a base range of 18km for a Torpedo.

To this end I suggest that Torpedoes should have a similar boost to Cruise Missiles, but less extreme. I would like to see an outright +50% boost to range by boosting Velocity and/or Fight Time; possibly a dps boost of circa 10%; or maybe some kind of change to Explosion Velocity. But this needs to be balanced, and a responder has pointed out that Rockets and HAMs currently achieve their higher dps relative to Lights/Heavies by a faster RoF and less Alpha, whereas Torpedoes actually have a higher Alpha than Cruise Missiles rather lower Alpha. And I think that players want that high Torpedo Alpha to stay the same, not get reduced in a re-balancing. So in the interests of balance my suggestion is that we do not boost Torpedoes by too much range (as you would expect given that HAMs have double the range of Rockets), but rather +50%, to place their range nicely in between HAMs and Citadel Torpedoes.

Explosion Velocity is where I get to my real bugbear on Missiles generally.

Just what exactly is ‘Explosion Velocity’? To me it looks like the physical velocity of the actual explosion of the warhead in the missile i.e. the explosion shockwave. If that is wrong and it represents something else then please correct me CCP. If I am right, then why is Explosion Velocity so low for Missiles, when the ‘real-life’ explosives that CCP takes its cue from when designing EVE online weaponry is so different? Some comparison is needed to hammer the point home :slight_smile: I have compared the explosion velocities of some real-life explosives to what we seen in EVE Online, from a simple wikipedia search:

Explosive Explosion Velocity (m/s)
ONC - 10100
RDX - 8750
PETN - 8400
TNT - 6900
TATP - 5300
ANFO - 3200
Gunpowder - <343
EVE Torpedo - 71

Yep that’s it… EVE Online, a spaceship game set thousands of years in the future, has it’s missile explosion velocity going at a fraction of the pace of 20th century explosives, that means ships can outrun the actual explosion shockwave. I didn’t know the destruction of the original EVE Gate was so bad that humanity lost all knowledge and capability of re-inventing 20th century explosives! :slight_smile:

It’s difficult not to challenge the very concept of Explosion Velocity in EVE - something needs to be done with Missiles, or definitely Torpedoes. Ok, I do understand that the concept is in EvE for balancing purposes and that getting rid of it would clearly make Torpedoes overpowered. As compromise with CCP, I would be happy for Torpedo Explosion Velocity to remain untouched, or perhaps very slightly boosted so as long as we get that +50% Range boost, considering how clearly it has been argued by so many that Torpedoes are lacking in that respect. This would see Torpedoes used more in the game, and by other races, which would be a Good Thing. Examples would be the Typhoon and Loki. What do you think of all this?

Links of other Torpedoes threads for everyone’s benefit, to show this has been a known issue for years now:

https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/6854365/
https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/380080/
https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-xl-torpedo-sucks/119750

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There are no shockwaves (compressed air) in the vacuum of space, so explosion velocity in EvE’s case may mean something completely different.

Torpedos don’t need more range than hams in the same way long range weapons don’t need to be lower dps than short range.

If torps get a base range of 18km, a raven/golem with all 5 has torps with a range of ~60km, a phoenix gets rapid torps with a range of 100km and bombers 120km. And thats before mods. Do i need to explain to you why this isn’t happening?

Comparing explosion velocity of real life to eve is a nonsensical comparison. Eve’s explosion velocity is about balancing damage application against targets. It’s low so that torps don’t one shot frigs. Check out the missile formula:

The equation for missile damage is as follows:

image

S signature radius of target Note: The bigger the better
Vt velocity of target Note: The smaller the better
D base damage of missile Note: The bigger the better
E explosion radius of missile Note: The smaller the better
Ve explosion velocity of missile Note: The bigger the better
drf damage reduction factor Note: The smaller the better

The only thing that is remotely realistic is the 10% damage boost but torps already do huge amounts of damage. If i remember right, they do more dps than blasters.

Anyways, try out some other weapon systems before you knock torps. It will give you a better all round idea of where weapons are and their strengths.

Daichi_Yamato, I can see your argument for not doubling the range of Torpedoes, but certainly some kind of range boost, say up to 50% would be a good move.

I don’t think Explosion Velocity should be got rid of in EvE, but if it’s not going to be changed, then other aspects of Torpedoes need to be boosted, especially after what has happened to Cruise missiles.

Why do you think that you shouldn’t be able to one-shot Frigates with Torpedoes, when it’s possible to do just that with Artillery, Lasers and Railguns?

Try to do that in a real combat situation.

It’s quite clear that you’re not experienced. That’s why i said you should try different weapon systems.

You think torps are in a bad place, but my issue is that you’re not really in a position to judge due to lack of knowledge.

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in real situation(ingame) you can one-voley off the frigs. example https://zkillboard.com/kill/75738432/
What’s more it’s with long-range guns.

Is this like your isk/hour for missions scenario?

Hitting people off the jita undock is not a realistic combat scenario. Unless you’re suggesting we balance weapon systems around ganking off of undocks. The frig isn’t even combat fit.

reported for trolling.

What is the definition of a realistic combat scenario, if it’s not “happens in real situations” ?

How about a scenario or set of scenarios that you genuinely believe weapons should be balanced around.

I.e.
The way carriers are balanced around null bloc wars. Or small gang warfare in low sec. Or 1v1 fights in fw plexes.

Edit-
As for trolling, look at the thread you’ve entered it and the way you’ve entered.

Op thinks torpedos should one shot frigs. I told him this isn’t a realistic expectation. Even more so given how other large weapons behave against frigs.

So do you agree with the op and want to support his argument? Are you making your own argument regarding this topic? Or are you just here because you have a hard on for me?

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It’s a cyclic definition : it should be balanced around because it happens in real situations.
Plus that’s a definition that requires to share the same experience.
Basically it’s a useless definition that anyone who does not want to agree with you can safely ignore.

Then all that remains is “there is an example of such a combat situation”, which I brought one of.

If I wanted to agree with OP I would have made my statement clear.
I agree with the people saying, in real combat situation, it’s sometime possible to one shot frigs with large guns but it’s not with torpedoes.
Don’t try to make me say anything else, I just don’t care. It’s just you trolling a pitiful way around because “you have a hard on for me”.

There you go op.

Go out and find out just how frequent ‘sometimes possible’ means.

No reason to do so. The argument was about the possibility, not the frequency. It IS possible to one shot frigates (actually fitted correctly, with buffer)using large guns, it is not possible with torpedoes.

I don’t keep track of who says it. If I find something noteworthy to say, I say it, whether it’s the OP or not. If you say something stupid, I’ll tell you it’s stupid. Maybe the fact that you are a stupid in my words is more to do about the way you post that the “hard on” I may have.
YOU have something for personal attacks (see previous troll about how you can’t make money in HS), I have something for debunking your stupid arguments.

But torpedoes always deal damage to target in range, turrets can miss. Thats the trade-off.

I said the op should go try hitting frigs with large guns.

I wasn’t arguing anything with him other than it’s not a realistic expectation. Let the op try it out.

You, as you often seem to do, are trying to make this about something else.

indeed.

You said that in answer to him saying it’s possible with large guns and not with torpedoes.

You affirmed in this post that this is not something possible, and that he believes it’s possible because he lacks experience, with a douchy attitude.

You are wrong.
It’s a realistic expectation, as it happens in real game situations.

Just like the last time, quote me where i said it’s impossible.

I said he should go out and try it. That way he can get some experience to measure the performance of large weapons.

Douchey or not is irrelevant. The guy clearly only focuses on missiles and even then he didn’t understand the relationship explosion velocity has with damage application.

My judgement of his experience/knowledge is bang on i think.

Which I did.
“It’s impossible” is the direct consequence from your post I quoted.

Learn to make research before saying something does not exists



But yeah I know, you’ll find out that it is not “real combat scenario”.
LIAR.

Yes it is. You are not able to make a correct argument. You thus claim something wrong “it’s not possible” in a douchey way - well it’s actually possible, and all remains is you being a douche.
Making mistakes is not an issue - being a douche because you are wrong is one.

That’s not a quote.

You’ve posted 4 kill mails from the last 24 hours out of 1700 total kills from the last 7 days with 20, 000ish average players online.

There’s also no way of telling how many shots it took to make those kills. They could have been missed first 20 times and you wouldn’t know.

What, me quoting you is not a quote ?

Lol. Who cares about the frequency ? Yeah, nobody.
Your point is out of topic.

The op should if he thinks it’s balanced to allow torps to one shot frigs.