One Way to Balance High-Security Space 🗡

[Arya_Yeshe]

This is one of the best posts in the entire forum

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Omnis_Decline

Thanks for all the tips here! A lot of this is advice I’ve managed to pick up from rookie help chat, my NPC corp chat, and the occasional (very rare) face talking in local chat. There’s a few details I wasn’t expecting here too.

I always talk in local

@Omnis_Decline

My current fit for expeditions outside of the starter systems is literally “free Ibis” because that way, if I get lucky, I live (which has been the case so far), and if I don’t, I lose nothing and respawn where I was heading anyway…

I’m still learning about how to do fitting properly, but that feels like a skill I’ll need hands-on experience at dying from failures with before it’s really settled in. Looking forward to it.

Download pyfa and give it your char. It mimics your skills so you can see what you can fit with your current skills. A lot of fittings out there are meant for when you got most of the fitting skills to 4 or 5, so as a nub it can be hard.

EVEfit also helps with ideas. Eventually you’ll get the hang of it and understand how the theory works. In reality, you can always experiment.

For example in the beginning, I’d go for cap stable fits for missions till you get more experience and feel more comfortable.

@Omnis_Decline

And this bit was new to me, but doesn’t seem surprising. Very much appreciate the advice all-round!

Most times you get stuff from Amarr, Diodixie and Hek too. Just sometimes the harder stuff to find is at Jita.

I’ll add you in game, if you need help just give me a shout if you see me on.

What ships are you trying to skill into? Its best to form a coherent skill plan to save time. but you also don’t need to jump straight into BSes right away either. Make sure you got the proper support skills.

@Destiny_Corrupted

The simple fix (or rather how the game should’ve functioned from the beginning) would be to have NPCs that constantly seek out player haulers to attack. Had that been the norm, then armed escorts would also be the norm. Instead, we only have the sporadic danger from player ganking, which happens so rarely that players feel entitled to not escort their haulers because the minimum premium they’d have to pay for risk mitigation doesn’t line up with the level of risk itself.

Diamond rats too

@Arya_Yeshe

This is one of the best posts in the entire forum

DC often has good stuff. although I’m sure Grampy Kells Rroff thinks I’m her alt but to be frank, we have very different styles LOL.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Destiny_Corrupted

That’s what hauling is. It’s the exchange of time to move an object from one place to another.

Yep, but this is a game and it seems that mechanics designed specifically to take up time while providing no entertainment are bad designs.

The difference with mining is that plenty of people do enjoy it. But let’s eb totally clear, I’ve state multiple times over the years that I think mining needs to be made more active too.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Gix_Firebrand

The most concentration of gankers is in Cal space. If you move to Amarr/Min not as much. Gal has a bit more depending.

I liked a statement you made in another thread:

• learn to be cloaked without needing a cloak

Choice of system to mine in can make that so much easier.

It doesn’t take much effort to find systems that provide opportunities to have intel on gankers moving towards you well before they ever arrive in local, so you can move, dock, change fitting, etc. well in advance of guns ever being fired.

Dotlan is a good tool for that. A couple of examples:

Dead end systems:

Mine in Quier an put eyes in Gicodel on the Frarolle gate. You’ll see gankers well before they hit the Quier gate in Frarolle and can respond accordingly.

Protected pipes (in this case highsec only on one side):

Put eyes in Scolluzer on the Sortet gate and you can mine pretty much anywhere up the pipe from there with almost 0 risk of being ganked.

You can be pretty much hidden in highsec from gankers while doing what you want. But if you choose to mine a couple of jumps from Jita, then expect to have to manage the potential consequences of that.

Most of highsec has 0 loss in any hour of play; and many systems have no loss for hours and even days on end (eg. looking at a system like Chesiette for example, the last player involved kill we can see was back in July, so even if there is a kill or 2 missing from that, it still isn’t a large risk to mine/rat there).

Back in November (and apology for linking to one of my own posts. I don’t have updated data right now), loss from any source (pvp or pve) was pretty low. It hasn’t changed.

There’s 1192 highsec systems and only a handful of them have any real risk of regular ganking. Highsec doesn’t need to be balance, people just need to make balanced choices.

Just pick a safe system and you can mine away pretty much unimpeded forever.

[Omnis_Decline]

@Gix_Firebrand

What ships are you trying to skill into? Its best to form a coherent skill plan to save time. but you also don’t need to jump straight into BSes right away either. Make sure you got the proper support skills.

I’ve been mostly focusing on industry skills, with a side of “make everything better” skills (Magic 14) and I got some frigate skills lined up with a plan to work my way to at least destroyer (and probably larger but no rush) and stick to PvE missions and mining for the near future. I’ll work out a more solid long-term plan when I’m more than a week old.

[Arya_Yeshe]

@Gix_Firebrand

DC often has good stuff. although I’m sure Grampy Kells Rroff thinks I’m her alt but to be frank, we have very different styles LOL.

Kel is just… special.
DC is another person, everybody knows who, but Kel thinks that then? Weird… why?

[Omnis_Decline]

@Lucas_Kell

Yep, but this is a game and it seems that mechanics designed specifically to take up time while providing no entertainment are bad designs.

I recommend typing the following into a search engine of your choice:
“Euro Truck Simulator”

[Lucas_Kell]

Alternatively, just yield tank. Always sucessful plus it has the added benefit of triggering people who don’t get math. Every scout is a wasted account that could be mining.

@Omnis_Decline

I recommend typing the following into a search engine of your choice:
“Euro Truck Simulator”

Yeah, I play it, and it’s significantly better than hauling in EVE. There a reason most of the professional haulers in EVE just use AP scripts so they don’t have to actually click anything.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Scipio_Artelius

You can be pretty much hidden in highsec from gankers while doing what you want. But if you choose to mine a couple of jumps from Jita, then expect to have to manage the potential consequences of that.

Yep. And there are ship fits that allow you to cloak without cloaking

When I came back, I chose a system with care and mined for days without even seeing another player LOL. And I was super close to Jita.

@Omnis_Decline

I’ve been mostly focusing on industry skills, with a side of “make everything better” skills (Magic 14) and I got some frigate skills lined up with a plan to work my way to at least destroyer (and probably larger but no rush) and stick to PvE missions and mining for the near future. I’ll work out a more solid long-term plan when I’m more than a week old.

Mm indy can be tough to break into unless you’re just doing it for yourself like making t1 ammo and such.

Mining can be easy as long as you pick the right system. As for missions, I’d pick a singular race of ships for now to skill into. TBH, easy mode for missions is a Cal or Gal ship. Training Cal/Gal isn’t hard cause lots of overlap.

Cal is probably the easiest for fire and forget honestly. Gal can be too, but gotta manage drone aggro a lot more.

If you go cal, just go for missiles first. Can run 1s in a kessie, 2s in a corax/caracal, 3s in a drake and 4s in a raven to start.

For mining, venture is good for starting out. Try to find a system with a citadel you can compress at too. Ventures actually make good little ore haulers too. Make one separate for that tho.

@Arya_Yeshe

Kel is just… special.
DC is another person, everybody knows who, but Kel thinks that then? Weird… why?

I’m sure he thinks we’re all multiple alts of one person. However, its clear we all have very different styles and thought processes LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

Alternatively, just yield tank. Always sucessful plus it has the added benefit of triggering people who don’t get math. Every scout is a wasted account that could be mining.

Amazing that you complain that the game should be about entertainment, but then want everyone to be AFK

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lucas_Kell

Alternatively, just yield tank.

Yep I agree. Maximise yield is the best way to do something so boring as mining.

Max yield and a quiet system is the best combination. Then you are pretty much guaranteed to cover costs.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Gix_Firebrand

Diamond rats too

Diamond rats were a good start, but they only appear in certain places, and aren’t proactive enough to present a true threat to players. If NPCs presented genuine combat threats to players everywhere and not just places where players selectively choose to run PvE content, a lot of the game’s historical ideological problems wouldn’t have existed.

@Lucas_Kell

The difference with mining is that plenty of people do enjoy it.

There is no proven difference. Just because you don’t personally enjoy hauling, doesn’t mean that there aren’t many other players who do.

[Arya_Yeshe]

@Gix_Firebrand

I’m sure he thinks we’re all multiple alts of one person. However, its clear we all have very different styles and thought processes LOL.

Many people through the years implied I’m one of Aiko’s alts, including in the wormhole corp I play in with the other alts, many times when I logged on people said in corp “Praise Aiko!” as a joke. They say I talk just like her when ingame, I disagere with them in that, I just have a few strong opinions about some things.

Almost all those people/friends are not forum users, I think the carebear paranoia about everybody being an Aiko’s alt is mass hysteria.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Gix_Firebrand

Amazing that you complain that the game should be about entertainment, but then want everyone to be AFK

Yield tanking doesn’t really work AFK.

@Destiny_Corrupted

There is no proven difference. Just because you don’t personally enjoy hauling, doesn’t mean that there aren’t many other players who do.

You only have to look at the relative sizes of the groups, hauling is pretty small and tight knit in comparison to mining, and even then at lot of it tends to be JF haulers jumping to destinations.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Arya_Yeshe

Almost all those people/friends are not forum users, I think the carebear paranoia about everybody being an Aiko’s alt is mass hysteria.

Very much true.

Also considering I only got 1 account, it just me

@Lucas_Kell

Yield tanking doesn’t really work AFK.

Oh? So you don’t even yield tank then? Or maybe you don’t understand what yield tanking is?

Cause remember, you said you mine AFK

@Lucas_Kell

You only have to look at the relative sizes of the groups, hauling is pretty small and tight knit in comparison to mining, and even then at lot of it tends to be JF haulers jumping to destinations.

So not only are out to kill the ganking playstyle, the AG playstyle but also the hauling playstyle as well?

Wild

[Lucas_Kell]

@Gix_Firebrand

Oh? So you don’t even yield tank then? Or maybe you don’t understand what yield tanking is?

Cause remember, you said you mine AFK

I do both, depends on what else is going on.

@Gix_Firebrand

So not only are out to kill the ganking playstyle, the AG playstyle but also the hauling playstyle as well?

I’m up for overhauling any old, stale mechanics that offer little in the way of challenges and aren’t entertaining. Mining included. I think the big heavy hitters are ganking, PI and hauling though. Of the three I think hauling is the trickiest to tackle as the core reason for hauling to exist is needed, it just doesn’t play well. It’s a time sink that feels like a time sink which is generally bad design.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Lucas_Kell

You only have to look at the relative sizes of the groups, hauling is pretty small and tight knit in comparison to mining, and even then at lot of it tends to be JF haulers jumping to destinations.

What exists fills the demand that is available. That has absolutely nothing to do with enjoyment. If there was additional capacity for hauling to be a viable profession, there could very well be additional players who would choose it over other activities. But players have bills to pay, which for many takes precedence over actually enjoying the game. If you don’t believe me, go interview some miners (as I have) and find out how many of them mine primarily because of enjoyment and not because they want an easy way to make ISK.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

I do both, depends on what else is going on.

It doesn’t sound like you got much going on

@Lucas_Kell

I’m up for overhauling any old, stale mechanics that offer little in the way of challenges and aren’t entertaining. Mining included. I think the big heavy hitters are ganking, PI and hauling though. Of the three I think hauling is the trickiest to tackle as the core reason for hauling to exist is needed, it just doesn’t play well. It’s a time sink that feels like a time sink which is generally bad design.

Its your opinion that its stale and old

@Destiny_Corrupted

If you don’t believe me, go interview some miners (as I have) and find out how many of them mine primarily because of enjoyment and not because they want an easy way to make ISK.

That would involve him playing the game or actually talking to folks.

Something I don’t think he does much

[Lucas_Kell]

@Gix_Firebrand

It doesn’t sound like you got much going on

Thanks?

@Gix_Firebrand

Its your opinion that its stale and old

Yep, that’s generally how people holding views works.

@Gix_Firebrand

Something I don’t think he does much

Irony levels at maximum.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

Yep, that’s generally how people holding views works.

Mmm cept you’re trying to present it as fact bruv

@Lucas_Kell

Irony levels at maximum.

For you? Of course Grampy Kells Rroff

[Omnis_Decline]

@Gix_Firebrand

Mm indy can be tough to break into unless you’re just doing it for yourself like making t1 ammo and such.

Yeah, especially as an alpha. I’m undecided on whether I’ll run omega, and if I do, undecided if it’ll become a long-term thing or not. We’ll see when we get there, I guess…

@Gix_Firebrand

As for missions, I’d pick a singular race of ships for now to skill into. TBH, easy mode for missions is a Cal or Gal ship. Training Cal/Gal isn’t hard cause lots of overlap.

My plan on this point is Caldari, mostly because I like the ship designs. That said…

@Gix_Firebrand

If you go cal, just go for missiles first. Can run 1s in a kessie, 2s in a corax/caracal, 3s in a drake and 4s in a raven to start.

I’m currently looking at experimenting with a Merlin fitted with blasters (I got lucky with a new friend giving me one that’s already fitted with equipment I’m able to use). They seem more fun to me. I’m aware it’s probably not ideal for PvP, at least for a beginner, and I won’t be surprised if it gets me killed running missions too. I want to experiment at least a little with other weapon types occasionally, and I have trained the baseline missile skills already. Also the magic schoolbus gave me a Kestrel fitted with rockets, so I’m considering picking the first level of those skills up at some stage to give them a shot too.