you don’t need to be in duel, being in the same corp with ff on is enough (tested)
You don’t need a T2 ship, using a fast and cheap frigate with 3 60% webs is enough. once your jump the gate, you just warp out to the closest celestial and align back to the gate, then once the freighter jumps the gate, warp to the freighter@5km. Even if it’s cloaked you wil land 5km from it, and if you have a sebo you can web it in 2s after it started aligning, which is almost enough to catapult it.
Also a 2webs dd is ensured to catapult in 1 tick.
The only issue is the 1min aggression timer on the next gate.
My understanding is that the pending collision box changes are being driven by a variety of factors, largely centered around Titans and supercarriers. (i.e. when you have a collision box tens of kilometers wide, that tends to muck up game mechanics near said collision box.) To imply that CCP is “fixing” collision boxes just to address the perceived issue of hisec bumping seems a bit off.
This isn’t a wish. It’s a demonstrable statement of fact. As soon as you undock (and your session timer expires), you are vulnerable to hostile action from other players. For that matter in some circumstances, you are vulnerable to hostile action from other players (wardecs, market PvP, etc.) without even being logged in. There is no aspect of this game where you are not directly competing with other players and subject to their hostile actions against you. The only thing that changes based on your location (docked, hisec, losec, nullsec, J-space) is the consequences for those actions.
CONCORD isn’t about protection, it’s about consequences. If they were about protection, going “safety red” in hisec wouldn’t even be allowed.
Botting is against the EULA/ToU. If solo players are botting fleets of ships to destroy freighters or other targets anywhere in the game, that is an issue that needs to be addressed. And this isn’t a scenario unique to hisec suicide ganking of freighters, there are nullsec bomber fleets that do the same to mining rorquals. Botting is bad, full stop. I don’t care if it’s used for harvesting ISK or for blowing up ships.
Let me try a different tack here. How exactly would you change bumping to be more “fair” to hisec freighter pilots without:
Breaking bump mechanics in more traditional combat situations (i.e. bumping active combatants away from a gate/station)?
Opening up exploits that would allow ships or fleets of ships to enter warp more quickly than they can now when packed into tight groups (i.e. station undock, tight formations, etc.)?
Arbitrarily benefiting a class of ships that already fills is role perfectly well?
Keep in mind that based on combat and economic data available from CCP, the overwhelming majority of hisec freighter runs deliver their goods without incident and the hisec economy is booming, so the overall impact of freighter bumping, both individually and collectively, is small.
And again, let me clarify something: if someone is bumping a freighter continuously for hours on end simply for the sake of bumping them, I see that as being subject to CCP’s policy on harassment. I’m not in favor of those kinds of actions. But bumping to briefly stop a ship, any ship, from entering warp is part of the game design.
Where do you draw the line between those two extremes? I suspect that this question underlies this entire debate. You and I draw the line in different places.
You can indeed use budget and SP friendly ships with in corp members to accomplish this. You will also be racing to get to the freighter unless it lands within your limited web range. Destroyers and Frigates are fast, so too are Machariels. Your option is cheaper, doable and a good first step but with considerably higher coordination effort.
Minmatar Recon reaches the freighter no matter where either of you land on either side of the gate. It is highly unlikely anyone will get anywhere near the freighter before webs hit it. All the Recon pilot has to do is hit 3 F keys, click Freighter on overview and watch as it sails away. As to the 1 minute weapons timer, long warps and or the 1 minute gate cloak has you covered there.
Hilmar replied that after a direct question on bumping, of course you are right it could be deflection or a no answer, or it could be that they do want to do something, as far as I am concerned it is a wait and see, but he also said that they had a team looking at bumping and that they were open to suggestions.
Why do players come back with such black and white statement, I said it is not a free for all, there are restrictions, I never said anything about not being vulnerable.
I am not going to go into a round robin on this as DMC already made the point on another thread about PvP that if no one is in system with you and you are mining or doing sites then there is no competition at all and no hostile actions.
In fact as soon as I undock in hisec only people who gank are a threat to me. As I said and will continue to say, there are restrictions.
As if I don’t know about that, not sure what point you are trying to make with that, especially when bumping is a hostile action has no consequences…
Why have you switched to talking about botting, you were only talking about multi-boxing before which as I said is not against the EULA. Multi-boxing gankers as far as I can see do not use input assistance or bots.
I think one thing I would do now is enable more fitting options for freighters to be fit like Bowheads with BS MWD’s so that pulsing the MWD would give more possibilities fro escape when bumped.
I would not call hisec booming at all, certainly as compared to what it used to be like. And the impact is not small, any one who is not on the blue list is highly concerned about being bumped and ganked when they move their freighters through Uedama and Niarja. And many of those players hate this mechanic with a passion and blame CCP for it.
Here we agree, my preferred attitude is that the bumping is situational but should not be possible to keep someone from warping until they get bored of bumping which is the case now.
As it stands the bumping mechanic without consequences in hisec is broken, elsewhere bumping is fine. My preferred option is to give fitting options for the BS MWD and see how that pans out. I am open to anything that ends this infinite bumping situation (apart from DT) and make freighter ganking less mechanical and certain.
The perma-bumping was already recognized by the devs as an real issue as they tried to come with a 3 minutes warp timer fix. That fix was not implemented for some reason (i really hope that that had more to do with a technical issue, than some goons lobby) but that doesn’t mean that being able to bump a ship and deny game time for hours to a player is still a subject to debate.
How often or how long it takes is completely irrelevant, the issue still exist as long as i cat get in a Machariel right now and for some sick reason i can start bumping a freighter at jita/perimeter gate for hours…
You want a video to see how it works and how long can take? I bet you will be to bored to watch it entirely. And is no wonder, there is nothing interesting happening, is just a guy blocked from playing by another guy, just because game mechanics allow him to do that.
There are consequences for the person doing the bumping. They’re making themselves a massive target for friends of the ship being bumped to be suicide ganked, or their corp to be wardecced, or their market orders to be undercut, etc.
There are no CONCORD-enforced consequences, no consequences enforced by the game server. This I will grant you. It’s up to the players to mete out the consequences for things like this.
EvE is a PvP game, straight down to its core. If you want justice, if you want protection, if you want safety, even in hisec, go out there and enforce it at gunpoint. CCP Falcon posted in the old forums to this effect, that if suicide ganking was a problem for you then you should bring bigger guns to the fight.
I make it a point to listen to forum reminders, and it’s telling me that I’ve replied enough to you on this topic. I think we have some degree of common ground here, which is good. That’s a place to start.
Good hunting sir. I appreciate you keeping it civil. o7
Not all players have suicide gankers alts in their rows or enough numbers/resources to do that, also not all corps can be wardecced with the new war system. And what if the bumper is in a NPC corporation?
And the last suggestion with the market orders is supposed to be a joke?
I have the strong impression that some people post on forums just from boredom without any intention to bring something constructive to the discussion (not to mention the professional trolls)…
Which is a nonsense statement because you can’t out-shoot a properly executed suicide gank. The whole point of suicide ganking is that CONCORD is killing them anyway, shooting them is worthless as a deterrent.
Yeah, because alpha alt accounts don’t exist and everyone bumps with their vulnerable main…
That is only a consequence if it happens and due to various reasons such as security standings and of course killrights on what are generally mains operating in hisec the risk of this is very limited from hisec carebear type players, also they have to do it without any chance to get loot to pay their losses. So the probability is very very low and as such not really a consequence.
Simple: implement an option to activate a special warp mode that puts your ship into warp regardless of speed or direction at the cost of disabling aggressive modules and manual direction control (as if you are entering warp normally). You click “emergency warp”, a two minute countdown starts, and once that countdown expires the special warp mode is enabled until you successfully enter warp. Warp disruption modules/effects of course prevent the ship from warping as long as they are applied, but do not alter the timer or activation of emergency warp mode.
So, your three requirements:
No effect. You can still bump a target off a gate/station and web + scram them to prevent them from moving back or warping out. The repositioning of the bump still happens (taking them out of jump/dock range) and conventional tackle keeps them from warping out.
No effect. Waiting out the timer takes longer than just warping out normally, and being unable to shoot or fly manually while the timer is counting down prevents you from activating it at the start of a fight in case you want to use it later.
No significant effect. Freighters are still vulnerable to ganking by competent groups. They gain a bit of safety by being less vulnerable to incompetent or unprepared groups that can no longer bump a target for 10+ minutes while putting together a gank fleet, but I don’t have any concern for low-talent gankers who can’t cope with the change. Prepared and competent groups will kill a freighter long before it can use the timer to escape.
Bringing bigger guns to stop a suicide gank in progress is a foolish move. Here I completely agree with you. If the gankers land on-grid, whether their target lives or dies is largely out of the targets hands.
Bringing bigger guns to blap the bumper keeping your freighter from warping is considerably less foolish. And if the cargo you’re hauling is valuable enough, it may even be cost-effective.
Last time I checked, everyone is vulnerable to being suicide ganked. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here chatting.
Also…not everyone bumps on alts, the people who scoop the loot also have to sell the loot to make any profit off of it, and tracking new sell orders for the stuff that dropped isn’t all that hard. So there are options. Not all of them are always available (and admittedly, some of the ones I listed are a bit of a stretch), but at least one always is.
Tagging Blade Runner so he can see my clarification.
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that I needed a fourth requirement that said, “Doesn’t fundamentally alter how warp mechanics work.” Apparently I did.
What you are proposing is patently ludicrous on its face and goes against everything that EvE stands for.
I could maybe, possibly, sort of see this working if it A) warped you to a random location instead of your destination, B) disabled your warp drive for several minutes, and C) gave you a log-out timer so that you couldn’t just safe log and vanish. EDIT: And D) required fitting a single-use (a la PANIC) low-slot module that was restricted to one module per ship and reduced the ship’s cargo capacity by a huge amount.
And before you say that my additions are way too harsh, you’re basically proposing an “I Win” button for hisec freighters. Risk vs reward being what it is, if you’re going to panic because you flew unprepared, you should suffer the consequences. And for such a mighty reward, the consequences had better be steep.
Also, a bit of context about me. I used to haul POS fuel though losec in a freighter. Made countless runs, didn’t lose a single load.
In losec.
While I realize that anecdotes to not data make, if I can figure out how to safely haul with a freighter through losec, doing it in hisec shouldn’t be so hard that it requires special “fixes” for freighters, bumping, warping, etc.
Not too mention, why have consequences anyway, there has been no damage done.
The fact is rather than be prepared for the suicide gank that is coming, bears are trying to avoid the gank by focusing on bumping. Even if they “fixed bumping” nothing would really change because there is more than one way to do this.
The real solution is don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose + Friendship is the Best Ship
