Personal account of the Drifter Summit (1st of May, YC 127)

[Miran_Tereven]

@Aria_Jenneth

So, first off, keeping your one hive all to yourself doesn’t just deny the undeserving outsider access to State secrets; it also denies the State access to the secrets from four additional hives. (It also misses out on the chance to watch the Triglavians work, which would be just a tragedy. We’ve seen plenty of their combat and engineering units, but when else are you going to get to watch the Collective’s scientists at work?!)

I have faith in our R&D budget, so that does not really concern me as much as the fact that the Reactive Shield Hardener does not exist yet. On top of that, I am cognizant of the fact that the Drifters and Triglavians are both a product of the Jove. A people who rendered themselves extinct. We should think very carefully, about what technology has to be adopted for the sake of survival, and what technology would result in detrimental effects. The capsule was a necessity, but it has also caused a lot of upheaval when the mistake was made to let Capsuleers be independent. The Rogue Drones exist because of Gallentean mistakes already. Sansha’s Nation exists because of one man’s hubris already. I would rather see cautious steps forward, than a great leap forward, that takes us off a cliff.

@Aria_Jenneth

Drifter hives’ most unique and least-understood assets are the “elements,” which are as far as we know only really usable as a completed set. That requires assets from all five hives, which will be in short supply if you’re hoarding all yours to yourself.

Depending on what is to be found, that may have been better for everyone.

@Aria_Jenneth

That might just be Ms. Priano, but I’m not sure.

Until someone takes responsibility for the decision, the organization as a whole shall be held responsible.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Remilia_Malitia

that they feel justifies all those murders

Let me spell this out, Ms. Malitia, to you, Ms. Tereven, and to whoever else:

This is a matter of capsuleers, intelligence assets, treaties, and maneuvers with potential significance on the level of empire. Empires, even. Plural.

“Justice” in that domain is PR and nothing else. Empires and similar-scale entities don’t have friends; they have interests. They don’t have morals; they have interests.

Powers clashed. Eggers got involved, took sides. People who were in the way, died. That’s what capsuleers are. That’s what capsuleers do. More than any other, that is THE service we provide.

What came of it, I don’t recall, if I ever knew. But it doesn’t matter one whit– this stuff doesn’t happen because of any guaranteed payoff. It happens because of the potential, or the perception of same.

Nothing needs justifying. If that is troublesome to you, I recommend retirement, because you are all but inevitably going to wind up killing a lot of people for reasons you would probably not want to have to try to explain to their mothers.

You probably already have. That’s just how we are.

I recommend you make your peace with it, or go find someplace where keeping a spotless conscience doesn’t demand quite so many shield hardeners to keep your denial from burning through.

[Remilia_Malitia]

Are you not embarrassed to be posting things like that?

[Aria_Jenneth]

You mean that I’m part of a warrior class whose primary service is hot and cold running murder, and so are you? And so getting really worked up about certain specific but really pretty ordinary deaths kind of feels a little … hypocritical?

(I mean seriously I’ve seen entire fleets of battleships predictably reduced to wreckage just for the sake of proving we had the will to fight. Best of all: in the circumstances it was probably the right move.)

… Not really, no. Sometimes kind of depressed, sure.

[Malak_Starfire]

@Aria_Jenneth

So as I understand it the five powers currently holding Drifter hives have voted 3-2 to share information amongst themselves but not with others, outside.

This was not a vote of the Empires, but of capsuleers who wish to influence the Empires’ positions. We don’t know if they will or will not.

Now I do support the positions that Capsuleers should be the ones influencing Empires. We are humans who have transcended the mortal coils of a singular fleshy vessel. We live through several lifetimes, we are more wealthy, and we are the future. CONCORD serves to limit our potential, and the Empires follow suit, as they are scared of what we can do once we become unshackled. I am glad someone outside of the CONCORD circle has gotten hands on this technology at least. The Triglavians understand our potential. I look forward to seeing what comes of the research.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Yeah, I saw that, after; sorry, I should have edited that bit, too.

I hadn’t been paying very close attention for a while, so the news was, well, news, and I misinterpreted it a little.

@Malak_Starfire

We live through several lifetimes, we are more wealthy, and we are the future.

Ah– pilot? You … might have bought into the marketing a little bit hard.

So far we’ve been around in numbers only for a little over twenty years and few of the original eggers are left. I gather the average career lasts about a year. It’s not clear how many retire versus how many, at some point, properly die.

I, personally, didn’t make it even a decade unscathed. Whee, sabotage-induced informorph damage.

(No, actually, it’s not bad in my case; my former self was not a very good or happy person. You, though, might prefer not to have your every personal memory reduced to digital noise.)

Anyway, don’t count your decades before you’ve lived them and maybe try not to upset your crew unnecessarily. We really don’t have a good counter for a knowledgeable baseliner with a tool kit.

[Kitaula_Kuusa_Jouhinen]

Very mercenary opinion of you. I approve. But you’re right and you’re wrong; our actions tend to fall outside of a baseliner’s ideas of justice and accountability, but definitely not outside of our peer’s ability to impose THEIR ideas of justice and accountability.

You can think of it as trivial a matter as you like, but don’t be surprised when people shoot you over it.

[Aria_Jenneth]

And thereby kill my crew, while I just wake up in a tube for the bazillionth time.

Yes, that does indeed sound like somebody’s idea of justice and accountability.

(I like Caldari mercenaries– very practical, very professional. The State’s the only society that treats it as an honorable profession, you know? So when working with them you can expect to be dealing with honorable people.)

(… also since when do eggers need justice as an excuse for shooting people? … And come to think of it as a goal it seems like it ranks up there with revenge as a bad piloting idea– apt to get your own ship blown up, repeatedly, giving you more and more things to seek justice for. The universe isn’t going to join in on your side just because it feels like it should.)

(I’m not going to say something stupid and prideful like “bring it,” but it does seem like the sort of thing that just kind of leaves wreckage– all fire, no light. “Justice,” as a word, sounds pretty foul in a capsuleer’s mouth to start with– naïve at best.)

(Deeply hypocritical at worst.)

[Miran_Tereven]

@Aria_Jenneth

“Justice” in that domain is PR and nothing else.

I don’t think appealing to moral nihilism is the play you think it is, when the issue is that by attacking our navy, ARC directly opposed the interests of the Caldari State. Those were not just people’s family members, but also a significant investment of time and resources to turn them into an asset to the navy. And that is before we consider the actual ships your goons destroyed. Fact of the matter is that your organization inflicted quantifiable damage greater than 0 ISK upon us, and that will not be forgotten, nor forgiven.

@Aria_Jenneth

Empires and similar-scale entities don’t have friends; they have interests.

And in the Serthoulde constellation, ARC went against the interests of the Caldari State.

@Aria_Jenneth

Powers clashed. Eggers got involved, took sides. People who were in the way, died. That’s what capsuleers are. That’s what capsuleers do. More than any other, that is THE service we provide.

The nature of the tool does not absolve the hand that wields it from blame.

@Aria_Jenneth

Nothing needs justifying. If that is troublesome to you, I recommend retirement, because you are all but inevitably going to wind up killing a lot of people for reasons you would probably not want to have to try to explain to their mothers.

My corporation provides back-ups for it’s personnel so we can bring them back. In the event that those fail, I do actually sit down with their families to explain what happened and why it happened. I also have no problem doing the same with the families of slain enemies if I ever meet them.

@Malak_Starfire

Now I do support the positions that Capsuleers should be the ones influencing Empires. We are humans who have transcended the mortal coils of a singular fleshy vessel. We live through several lifetimes, we are more wealthy, and we are the future. CONCORD serves to limit our potential, and the Empires follow suit, as they are scared of what we can do once we become unshackled. I am glad someone outside of the CONCORD circle has gotten hands on this technology at least. The Triglavians understand our potential. I look forward to seeing what comes of the research.

Not every capsuleer agrees with that insanity. Some of us remember that having fancy tech jacked into us doesn’t change who we are, what we are, or where we came from. Logically, I maintain the exact opposite view, relative to the vision you posted. CONCORD and the Empires should be regulating and controlling Capsuleers more, not less.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Nihilism and realism aren’t to be confused, Ms. Tereven. Nations and similar-scale entities will act in their own interests, and the only one I’d expect to let moral concerns slow it down is … maybe the SoE? (And maybe not even them.) What is, is.

More broadly, what must be done, must be done. And if I don’t consider the act of doing it necessarily ennobling, I also can’t say I think a lot of refusing because you don’t like the people doing it, much less of attempting to undercut the effort. I admire Caldari pragmatism; it’s what results in most of what I like most about the culture.

The romanticism’s responsible for most of what I don’t. (You’re unlikely to find a more nostalgia-addled romantic than a Templis Dragonaur– the terrorists, not the eggers.)

I’m a little impressed if you’ve managed to arrange cost-effective or otherwise affordable mass-backups, considering that means cloning every crew member you have at least once (last I looked there’s no alternative to the burn scanner). Are you taking advantage of Upwell’s latest initiative or something? If not …

… if not, respectfully, you might want to check your books to confirm you have a working program and not an embezzler. People have been known to take bad advantage of good intentions.

[Lauralite_Anne_Brezia]

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m a little impressed if you’ve managed to arrange cost-effective or otherwise affordable mass-backups, considering that means cloning every crew member you have at least once (last I looked there’s no alternative to the burn scanner). Are you taking advantage of Upwell’s latest initiative or something? If not …

I’ll poke in on this, though won’t speak for Miran.

Non-destructive backups have existed for some time, cost is of course a factor and calling it ‘cost-effective’ may be a misnomer, but as given the Empire Navies do offer soft-scan backups on an extended rotation for personnel above the entry ranks as they gain additional certifications… it’s not quick or ‘cheap’ but it is not cost prohibitive in the way it might have been two decades ago. Some variation seems to apply between the empires if my contacts in the navies are to be believed, and also between various squadrons or fleet elements, and whether or not a ship crew is expected to be in a high risk deployment or not.

I’d wager any baseliner signing up isn’t reading all of the minutiae and may expect they’re going to be backed up but if they don’t have certain certs or aren’t in a high risk fleet element they might not be scheduled for it for a good while.

It is an expensive process but not one that’s particularly inaccessible to the likes of us. Some use it, some don’t, others invest the isk they’d otherwise spend on backups on enhanced survival measures, others don’t. Such is the way of things.

As for Upwell’s cloning system…. It is, deficient, even by the standards of the Clone Pilot technology it’s clearly derived from. The nanoheuristic mapper technology when applied correctly with the right clone architecture has little to no infomorph degradation or desync, which was an early problem for renegade clone pilot groups, a problem that they managed to fix on bootstrapped resources and were able to continue using with lower risks as time went on. Upwell seems to have taken those technologies, cut them down even further than the original implementation, and made an ultra-cheap, highly degradation prone cloning method that is actively inferior to the already fairly cheap Nanoheuristic Mapper/ScTEBS and newer cloning architecture the clone pilot groups were using, and even inferior to the older version that had similar degradation and desync issues to Upwell’s system…. Upwell considers that inferiority to be worth being able to mass clone work forces and jam them into what I’d at best describe as aggressively exploitative extended working contracts.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Hm. I should check LUMEN’s procedures and see whether we’re taking full advantage of this; it’s the sort of thing where there should be at least a discussion if we’re not right now. I normally avoid much contact with my crews, on the understanding that I might at any time be responsible for their deaths, so it’s possible that some percentage of them are backed up and I just wasn’t aware.

I’ll admit to some mixed feelings. The understanding that an error on our own part was apt to result in hundreds dead was one of the major barriers to capsuleers thinking of ourselves as heroes of some sort. That kind of un-self-critical attitude’s apt to increase how easily we take on the kinds of tasks that really do involve unambiguously killing off up to tens of thousands of people.

I guess most of us don’t hesitate to do that anyway, though.

[Miran_Tereven]

@Aria_Jenneth

I’m a little impressed if you’ve managed to arrange cost-effective or otherwise affordable mass-backups, considering that means cloning every crew member you have at least once (last I looked there’s no alternative to the burn scanner). Are you taking advantage of Upwell’s latest initiative or something? If not …

I wouldn’t use the term mass. There are a few factors at play there.

• Firstly, I prefer to fly smaller ship classes, which utilize less crew than the bricks with engines by default.
• Secondly, being a capsuleer vessel rather than a baseliner vessel means that my ability to interface with the ship’s systems allows me to dispense with a lot of crew.
• Thirdly, I further cut down on the number of people I need to expose to danger, by replacing people with automation wherever possible.
• Fourthly, I only provide back-ups for the people I directly expose to harm by taking them with me.

Furthermore, much like those that came before me, I have no problem controlling a frigate without baseliners aboard.

Asides from that, I have also honed my craft, meaning that I take more losses when someone decides an empty hauler has to go, than when I am out there in a combat frig.

All of that together means that, freak accidents excepted, I don’t have to hold meetings with next of kin very often.

@Lauralite_Anne_Brezia

Non-destructive backups have existed for some time, cost is of course a factor and calling it ‘cost-effective’ may be a misnomer, but as given the Empire Navies do offer soft-scan backups on an extended rotation for personnel above the entry ranks as they gain additional certifications… it’s not quick or ‘cheap’ but it is not cost prohibitive in the way it might have been two decades ago. Some variation seems to apply between the empires if my contacts in the navies are to be believed, and also between various squadrons or fleet elements, and whether or not a ship crew is expected to be in a high risk deployment or not.

When I rotate into the militia, many of my Condor fits have no tank at all, so I’d say they match the high risk clause.

@Aria_Jenneth

I’ll admit to some mixed feelings. The understanding that an error on our own part was apt to result in hundreds dead was one of the major barriers to capsuleers thinking of ourselves as heroes of some sort. That kind of un-self-critical attitude’s apt to increase how easily we take on the kinds of tasks that really do involve unambiguously killing off up to tens of thousands of people.

We’re not debating whether y’all are heroes or not. We’re informing you that we see you as enemies. Or at the very least the person responsible for the Athounon incident, if other members are apparently distancing themselves from that.

[Aria_Jenneth]

… You miss the point entirely, Ms. Tereven, and in a way that makes me wonder if you’re really bothering to read. Few in ARC, if any, would call themselves heroes. At most, we’re a coalition of those who put responding to a problem ahead of all our various excuses for ignoring it.

Individually, none of our home organizations were up to the task, so we joined hands and did what someone had to: we watched, we monitored, we studied, we reported– and I say “we” although I’ve scarcely been more than a somewhat-dependable helping hand.

If we’d left it to those who won’t work with enemies, nothing would have happened.

I’m proud to have done it, but the “hero” in this scenario would be one who, early in our work, boarded a Caracal-class cruiser named “Acceptable Loss IV” to serve as crew, knowing full well that the bleak joke of the name was also a warning. The one who was willing to die all but nameless and unknown, only so that the work might move forward: that’s a hero.

I’m naturally wary of absolute statements, but in my heart, the capsuleer who looks in the mirror and sees a hero sees also a liar. No one who risks so little while killing so many is worthy of such a title.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Aria_Jenneth

At most, we’re a coalition of those who put responding to a problem ahead of all our various excuses for ignoring it.

What problem was that again?

I think the problem you caused is pretty obvious, but somehow when you are probed on these empty platitudes it all falls apart.

@Aria_Jenneth

Individually, none of our home organizations were up to the task, so we joined hands and did what someone had to: we watched, we monitored, we studied, we reported

That certainly is a way to dress up “we murdered innocent people and released footage we ripped from their wreckage”

For a group that allegedly does not see yourselves as heroes, you lot sure are insistent on pretending you serve some higher ideal, that you are doing the “right thing” that no-one else will.

Get a grip, all of you. You do not care about anything but being the first ones to uncover whatever of interest is happening to slap your little logo on, no matter the collateral damage you cause.

You are little more than militant tabloid writers, blindly chasing sensationalism while trying to present yourselves as researchers or arbiters of international balance.

Pathetic.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Thank you, Ms. Malitia. Every so often as Ms. Tereven pursues her rather strong feelings about this subject I start to forget that there’s a difference between her and you.

It would be sad, to think that of her. We’ve flown together, you know? A few different times. We’ve done good work together. … It would be sad, to forget that.

And then you come along and remind me that she’s someone I respect.

Thank you.

[Remilia_Malitia]

Very weird thing to post.

Stay on topic, what problem was ARC addressing by sponsoring the murder and robbery of Caldari Navy forces?

Why are you trying to excuse this?

You know, ARC would at least begin to reclaim some sliver of respectability by just admitting what they did was either intentionally malicious or a mistake. Failure to address anything just makes you look spineless.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Because you’re totally my go-to person for determining how I post.

Or assessing people, or organizations, or anything about anything, actually.

It’s fine if you don’t get it. I expect Ms. Tereven will.

The real argument here, at least where I’m concerned, isn’t between you and ARC; I’m not one of their actual representatives– just a long-standing pilot. It’s between Ms. Tereven’s very, ah, honorable (or stubborn) determination that ARC is her ENEMY and my exasperation with same on the grounds that it might be principled, but it’s not nuanced and it’s not pragmatic.

The topic of this thread is the Drifter Summit. Here, as elsewhere, she’s participating in its derailing. (As are you, but you’re like Ms. Kim– not worth trying to dissuade.) It’s not constructive or at this point even very interesting; it’s just loud.

The willingness to just focus her ire on whoever gave the order is something, at least.

Either way, there’s still work to be done. Unless a specific someone orders otherwise, I have no reason not to help do it.

[Remilia_Malitia]

ARC is an enemy of the State, and they made that blatantly clear during the Serthoulde Campaign.

If you wanted to put the blame on Priano-guri that would be one thing, but both formal ARC officers and unregistered supporters not only excuse her, but actively support that sponsored massacre as something virtuous.

There will be no deflection of blame here, ARC is an enemy, and this fact is very relevant to their anti-civilization stance in regards to the newly acquired Drifter tech and data- because ARC’s goal is not balance, it is not defense nor retribution against the Drifters. It is entirely self-serving. They want open sharing of information so that they can intrude in on the work of the legitimate stewards of these hives in pursuit of that sensationalistic obsession, once more disregarding the collateral damage those childish ambitions would cause.

By highlighting these facts I hope to discourage any persons of influence on this matter that might come across this thread. ARC is a disreputable, self-serving, short-sighted rogue actor, and any endorsement coming from them should be heavily scrutinized.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Those wondering at the speaker’s high and holy tone might be interested to look back over her corporate and combat history, particularly during the Triglavian invasion.

She claims she was a spy for the State at that time, and ancestors know it could have used a few.

It’s been interesting, since, to watch how consistently she’s stood for closer ties between the Triglavians and the State. She might sense a certain kinship of spirit there– both are competitive, survival-oriented societies– but it’s curious how quickly pragmatism comes to the fore in such a pious person considering the sheer scale of State losses in that conflict.

All of which to say: was she indeed a spy back then? Or is she one now? And if she is trying to encourage the State to go it alone, is it for the State’s sake that she is doing so?

Or, like many manipulators, is she attempting to isolate the victim so it has nowhere else to turn?

It’s hard not to wonder whether she imagines the State willingly joining the Triglavians by disappearing, system by system, into the Abyss. Perhaps that could be an acceptable outcome to some; certainly it would spare the State having to deal much with other cultures and faiths– well, other than the advanced precursor Triglavians themselves.

Perhaps for that exact reason it could ultimately be a delivery of resources to her masters on an otherwise impossible scale: to be first welcomed as newfound kin, and then dismantled, one Proving at a time.

The State already has some experience with Triglavian Provings. Enough not to want more? That will be for others to decide.

This is speculation, of course, but even recent history might suggest that those most eager to proclaim themselves patriots and guardians are often the ones to watch most closely.