Sounds like someone is a little upset at getting backed into a corner.
What a joke.
Speaking of deflections.
No; you just left me an opening by speaking that much more righteously than your history will bare, and, after a few hoursā consideration (I slept on it), I decided I should puncture that hot air dirigible youāve inflated for yourself before it carries you too high for your lungsā ability to continue drawing oxygen.
And Iāve spoken plenty of speculation, but not a single lie.
A spy is by definition a questionable person, Ms. Malitiaā a person whose whole career purpose is strategic deception. Itās honorable service but it comes at the price of reasonable suspicion: especially when placed in close contact with the enemy over long periods of time as you were, spies can be turned, and often are.
Your loyalty is far from beyond questioning, so itās very interesting watching you adopt such righteous postures.
I have had quite a few pieces of fanfiction written about my person, but a spy drama is a new one.
Still, not particularly pertinent to the discussion at hand, you should share your writing in another thread.
Care to address any of the points brought up highlighting ARCās failings or are you just running away for the umpteenth time in this thread alone?
Nopeā again, I donāt speak for ARCā and Iāve little more to say in any event.
(You are, yourself, deflecting again, by the way. If you attacking ARCās credibility with its past is fair game, then so is me attacking yours with your own. Ideas should stand on their own merits, but itās hard not to question when a terribly-pious-sounding accuser has a history involving deep deception.)
Bye!
Do you even realize how hypocritical it sounds? Defending ARC youāre defending not just a ādeceiverā: the well infamous ARC representative is quite known for not just deception, but unabashed public lies and lack of courage and honor to stand for her words.
If I am not mistaken, I was saying that way before you even started flying with this riff-raff (though I might be wrong, but it started long ago even in I-RED, when the dishonorable person was theirā¦ akhemā¦ ādiplomaticā (however ridiculous it sounds) representative).
And yet you fell for them.
But, anyway. If thatās your excuse, how about answering the same question to person who instead of history of deception has a history of loyalty and combat records?
Going to worm out again?
Though I am not, honestly, very interested in answer itself, for I know it for myself. And for me LUMEN are same enemies of the State as ARC, so I donāt really care that much, simply becasue convincing you to go against ARC wonāt really change your status.
I am more interested to see whether you have a spine to answer for your words or not.
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Iām not even bothering to read, Ms. Kim.
If you want to address others, talk as long as theyāll tolerate you.
If you want to address me, please spare yourself the trouble. Our bridge is long-since burnt.
Admitting being wrong shows Honor and Intelligence, while double-downing on obviously gaping mistake is a simply pathetic sight.
My mission is completed here. I got information what I wanted and in a way I prefer: Itās way easier and joyful to harass and hunt down despicable enemies than those who instill respect.
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There is certainly some common ground there.
Right, but most importantly, from the Caldari perspective, you paid random Capsuleers to go to Athounon and hunt ships from our navy in our territory.
You are writing this as if it is supposed to be a negative thing.
It is not about what you do. It is about what you do it for. I was raised to be a very wholesome noodle, and in many regards I still am, but one of the first things I learned after becoming a Capsuleer is that this cluster is not a friendly place, and that there are many external and internal threats who accost our culture kinetically and non-kinetically. The day I realized that, I decided that I would do whatever was necessary to protect my culture, including furthering itās agenda, since that is the only way to keep up in the great game. To that end I have never experienced remorse, nor have I hesitated. Not with the Trigs, not with the Federal Defence Union, not with the Guristas, not with Sanshaās Nation, and not with the Drifters. My regret is that one girl can only inflict so much violence to reduce the number of threats. To that end I also regret that having to be nice entails flying logi.
ARC paid Capsuleers to hinder the Caldari Navy (which, I will remind you, I served in myself as a Baseliner) in the execution of itās duty, by destroying itās ships and looting classified video recordings from the wrecks. In doing so, it went against the interests of the Caldari State. It was naughty. And that puts it on the same level as all the other threats I have mentioned above.
It is not unnecessarily loud, solely because you do not understand why they are doing it. This is likely to warn other Caldari, that the nebulous cabal of independent Capsuleers, who are calling for greater technological proliferation, actively went against the Stateās interests during a military operation, and caused the loss of navy ships and lives in the process, and should consequently not be trusted, to advise us on what the best path forward for our people should be.
I will also point out that Diana is a perfectly respectable walking combat record, as long as she refrains from communicating.
Yet I, whose combat record is devoid of blemishes, and whose combat record during the Triglavian Invasion was publicly lauded by capsuleers from all major powers, also acknowledge that ARCās behaviour during the Serthoulde Campaign indicates that it does not have the best interests of our people at heart.
It should be said that, neither do the Triglavians, and I will always continue to advocate that their eradication should resume until all temporarily occupied systems have been liberated.
Why do you say this?
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We all have power of taking our own decisions. We have ability to operate ships size of cities, our shadows in the skies instill fear on people on planets, and amount of death and suffering we can bring to people exceeds ones of the best warlords of the past. We are not just pilots, we are generals and commanders who control armies of our crewmembers, we give life and we give death.
With that everything we do or say resonate through the cluster, it affects those who under our command and those who are under command of our opponents. Everyone chooses their way. Those who seek peace and neutrality do bring on the table peace and neutrality. They are generally thoughtful, friendly and polite. Those who seek hostility do behave with hostile manner.
And this is true for LUMEN.
Their stance bewildered me myself, and I did try to treat it as their mistake, inquiring to them. Apparently, for no avail. But in the end, I am neither a psychiatrist to deal with their nonsense, nor a diplomat to pacify them. I am a just a mere soldier, and my profession is to do the fight. Well, you can say I do intend to pacify them, but that will come in a way of pressing them into submission and defeat, or complete elimination. Though we have to agree, that itās way harder to achieve if you take into account their capsuleer status. You could, however, strive to achieve the termination of the organization, that is actually possible, after all, a single toxic capsuleer represents way less danger to people around them than the whole allaince backing them.
So from my side I can reply with a simple stamp: if the fight they want - then the fight they get.
Why exactly they behave like that, youād better quiery them themselves, as you see on example of same Jenneth: talking with them might be not very profitable, unless you have a certain degree of patience, tolerance and time to waste. And even that might not help.
Though really, REALLY. Before digging into Lumen, you could start with questioning yourself.
Let me see if I can clarify a little.
I donāt think a lot of usā of capsuleers, generally. I have a lot of reasons for thisā obscene wealth gathered all too easily; legal rights and freedoms that make us more petty tyrants of our own tiny sovereign nations than citizens of our home nations; our sense of entitlement to all that we receive, as though we were truly the great heroes weāre often treated as; the indifference we generally show to those less-fortunateā but ultimately it mostly boils down to bloodshed.
New Eden is a violent place with or without us of course; deadly clashes are routine. Naval captains may collect a decent collection of battles fought and won, at the foeās cost.
Capsuleers, though, are on another level: a reasonably well-trained one can obliterate fleets of conventional ships in a matter of minutes, at little or no risk to ourselves. Over the course of a career a single egger can kill enough people to populate cities.
Whatās more our whole economyās based on it. Combat pilots fight baseliners and each other; industrialists and researchers focus predominantly on weapon construction; miners provide the raw materials for same.
I said before that nations tend to act in their own interests, without regard for morals? Well, I think for the most part so do we. And, again, we do so without substantial risk to ourselves.
I donāt think an egger, even someone like the directrix (who I follow in part because I consider her a decent person), can meet the qualifications for being a āheroā in any really meaningful sense.
At best, we can be described as professionals providing a service (death, mostly. Other things, too, but largely death). Thatās how I try to think of myself.
At worst? Parasites. Heirs chosen by the Jove to rise to join and ultimately replace themā and therefore an absurdly privileged āchosen fewā feeding greedily on the blood, resources, and kredits of people we really should have had more in common with.
Never heroes.
And Iām about done arguing about it, Ms. Tereven, so I hope youāll forgive me if I let you have the last word in a lot of whatās above. In the end I think youāre mistakenā even pretty naiveā but Iām content that itās a position you hold to strongly and in good faith. I donāt mind if people listen to you and decide for themselves; you donāt need a warning label.
Itās an honest kind of folly, even a traditional one for a proper, patriotic soldier. Itās not practical at all, but I guess thatās why diplomats and top-tier executives exist. Theyāll be the ones to decide. Iām fine with them hearing you.
There can be different reasons for people to want or believe something, though. Sometimes the reasons wonāt be, or wonāt only be, the ones youāre told. The person to be most careful of is often the one telling you exactly what you want to hear, but for reasons that are entirely their own.
You take the position you do because of who you are. Ms. Malitia takes the position she does because of who she is. Itās the same general position, but that does not make āwho you areā the same.
Listening to you is not unwise.
Listening to her? When sheās trying to sound like someone like you, even though sheās not at all?
That might be less of a good idea. And it might be a good idea to look closely at why she might be saying what sheās saying, seeing who really benefits.
So many words just to say nothing at all. Why even post?
See that, Ms. Tereven? That short, ādonāt bother to read thatā -type critique following a long post?
Now, take a look over what I did actually say. Did I really not say anything? Is Ms. Malitiaās reading comprehension just that bad? ā¦ Or is she posting a short, snappy, quickly-and-easily-read lie in hopes people will accept it as true and just not bother to read the longer post, assuming itās just empty words?
And if itās that last, why?
Please come back to reality, Jenneth, you spew out intellectually deficient platitudes at best, either driven by crippling insecurity about your own shortcomings or genuine delusion. Do you think it takes a doctoral thesis to respond to this?
You spent the first half of that reply setting up and knocking down the concept of capsuleer heroism, to yourself, unprompted, as a reply to the undeniable virtue of sacrificing for the good of the whole, the cornerstone of duty to a cause greater than yourself (probably a foreign concept to you), all in an indulgent, masturbatory monologue about how special you think you are because of the plugs in your back. Once more, get a grip and stop embarrassing yourself.
The second part of that post was even sadder, you so adamantly insisting that you are absolutely totally done with defending ARCās actions- but of course not without devoting a good part to calling those that oppose you naive, mistaken, impractical- all after a whole thread of dodging questions and calls for justification or responsibility, again and again, then all capped off with a beautiful little callback to your bizarre fanfiction about me being some nefarious agent actually working to undermine the State.
I genuinely urge you to stop making such a fool out of yourself and reconsider some things before continuing to post. Every time you do, your spinelessness, your insecurity, and the fact that your empty platitudes are nothing but a desperate attempt to make yourself look substantive and deep, when only a cursory glance makes the truth apparent, becomes clearer.
You are a spineless worm devoid of honor, Jenneth. A traitor to your people, who then crawled away to play at being an Amarrian handmaiden, somehow thinking you are fit to pass judgement on anyone at all.
Get over yourself, honestly.
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And so you concede: I did not in fact say nothing at all; just nothing you liked.
Want to know something funny, Ms. Malitia?
As you know, Iāve been suspicious of you for a long time. Itās natural, considering our respective roles during the Triglavian invasion. At that time, I believed firmly that to side with them was to betray literally every person you had met before that time.
But, Iām not good at grudges, or spite. My judgments are tentative. If youād shrugged off my concerns as understandable but wrong and just worked tirelessly for the State, Iād definitely have let them go.
Instead, itās been like this, the whole time.
Itās hard to tell whether you just really hate me or whether youāre trying, flailingly, to protect yourself. You act so outraged, so hostile, and so terribly scared that someoneās going to listen to me that itās hard not to wonder what youāre afraid theyāll hear.
Maybe thereās someone who thinks you look strong right now. You seem to have a few followers, people who look to you for leadership.
I like at least one of those people. So I hope youāll try not to disappoint them.
How you look to me, I think Iāve made clear enough.
You are not deserving of my hatred, Jenneth, only a measure of contemptuous pity reserved for any other wasted life out there, devoid of either conviction or a backbone.
This was never about you either, until you decided to act as ARCās defense time and time again throughout this thread, only to retreat to your apparent noninvolvement whenever pressed.
I do not care about you, Jenneth, only pointing out the hollowness of your apologetics as you try to ennoble these butchers to the eyes of the public. The point, ultimately is to present the inexcusable actions of ARC over the course of the Serthoulde Campaign, a reflection of their own lack of moral compass or foresight, even as their membership advocates for a policy that would spread highly preventable chaos and destruction across the cluster.
This is far more important and substantive than your wounded little ego.
And yet for someone so dedicated to substance, a good percentage of what you say is dedicated to often quite personal ad hominem. Maybe your fellows will think that is just a sharp-elbowed debating style but I doubt the people youāre really trying to reach feel the same.
To me, itās chaff, a bit annoying but ultimately ephemeral, one of the reasons I address you little and Ms. Kim less. Aside from my corp ticker, Iām no sefrim, but that has little to do with the truth or significance of what I say. Cut out the insults and your post length would drop considerably.
And be a lot more interesting, come to that.
Iāve been around a long time, Ms. Malitia, and a lot of my presence has been hereā me and my predecessor both. I love thinking and talking about all kinds of things. To me, knowledge and insight are ends in themselves.
Odd as it might be to say, next to SFRIM HQ this is probably my favorite place in the clusterā and itās not even really a place!
A few insults arenāt going to quiet me, and all of this hasnāt done a lot to make your possible motives for encouraging the Caldari to isolate themselves less suspicious.
Learn what an ad hominem is, and find examples of it throughout almost every post of yours involving my person in this thread.
Every argument I have made so far towards this topic has been backed by hard facts. The ARC sponsored massacre, the lack of concrete or even desired results that were to come from said massacre, the fact that open tech proliferation has resulted in disaster in the past and will undoubtedly do so again when malicious, unlawful actors are chomping at the opportunity to ravage civilized space in exciting new ways, your repeated deflections and evasions whenever anything but empty words is requested.
I insult you only descriptively, and in addition to making actual arguments. You are the one that thinks that triglavian spy fanfiction and projections of insecurity are, by themselves, arguments.
Want to prove otherwise? Address the actual points and concerns raised by the people in this thread. No hollow grandstanding, no vague allusions about how nuanced and above our comprehensions the sponsored murder of naval personnel actually is, no nonsensical tangents about the nature of being a capsuleer, and hopefully, no fleeing yet again because you are actually totally not involved or invested in this argument.
You think me calling you a spineless worm was an insult? Prove it wrong and stand for something just this once. Back your arguments in favor of ARCās actions in Serthoulde with actual facts.
I might be able to find some. (I donāt like you, I donāt trust your motives, and I donāt think any Caldari of good conscience should.)
However, the heart of an ad hominem fallacy is that it attacks an irrelevant aspect of an opponentās character. My supposed courage and whether Iām a vertebrate is irrelevant to the quality of my observations.
Your history, and what it suggests about your motivations, your truthfulness, and your actual loyalties, is quite relevant because it suggests you may actually be pressing an agenda on behalf of a recently-and-quite-possibly-still hostile power.
Itās a strong hint to why you might be quite so maniacally focused on one chapter out of an organizational history spanning a good ten years, and why you seem to care so much about it despite knowing full well that Morduās Legion, to name just one example, occasionally ends up at cross-purposes with State elements sufficiently to result in weapon fire, and yet routinely has its retirees accepted as State citizens.
Youāre trying to nail me down on that one incidentā one I have limited ability to defend because I HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE SPECFICS BEHIND IT and one UNRELATED to the Summit this thread was once discussing. And you are doing that because you are arguing in bad faith.
My own position on it boils down to, āEven if it were as bad as you allege, itās not enough to make it worth trying and failing to go it alone.ā Which I think Iāve said in different ways about three times by now. Even enemies to the State can be worked with, and routinely are.
In other words, Ms. Malitia, I have suggested youāre a trickster, attempting to be tricky, and should have your motives analyzed instead of just assumed to be in alignment with the readerās. What that might say about the rest of your honor, character, and quality as a human being, isnāt relevant.
It does play a role in just how much contempt I hold you in, however.
Arenāt you ashamed of yourself? What are you even doing in here? Are you for real that hypocritic or your clone short-circuited and burned the remaining healthy part of gray matter?
Pretty much Ms. Tereven sees evertything. How you donāt see it though is mindboggling. Do you have ocular implants from YC75 or what?ā¦ Or burned down intelligence implant from YC40?
No, really, go check in AIMED ASAP. I want you to be able when I come for you. Thereās no honor in hunting down enemies so myopic. And it just kills off the thrill of the hunt!
I rest my case. Nothing of substance to say once again. I expected nothing more.
Are you at liberty to share when you will be joining us back in space, Commander? Your presence on the battlefield has been missed.