Player agency and October Balance Pass

I agree with that.
Until you start saying it is the victims fault they were killed.
It isn’t. They could have reduced the risk or avoided it. But they didn’t ask for it. It happened to them.
I ganked people. I did it because I wanted to. I ganked people for fun without profit. I wasted battleships, cruisers, and destroyers ganking people and i didn’t even scoop the t1/t2 loot. That doesn’t mean it was their fault.

They did. This is EVE Online. Undocking is literally asking someone to come screw with you in some way, because EVE Online is notorious for this.

Understanding this is why this is my biggest loss to ganking in EVE Online to date:

Just like with my old class, if you want people to be safe teach them their responsibility to themselves. Anti gank people don’t do that, they run to CCP for help.

I’ve been a part of 2 high sec ganks. I didn’t much care for it personally. But I can see that the danger it presents gives value to the EVE experience. The anti gank people are so consumed with hate that they can’t see that. Some of them lie to themselves saying “I just want it to be balanced”.

I have never seen a mission runner in my 12+ years ask to be ganked.
You must play on a different server.

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Asking need not be verbal. Simply being unprepared in a situation where these things happen is enough.

It’s like if someone in my neighborhood decided to go outside at 3am in a suit made of stitched together money. No, he didn’t say “beat me down and take my suit please”, but anyone with any sense would never do that where i live.

It’s the criminals ‘fault’, but fault doesn’t stop things from happening. It’s better to prevent bad things than scream “IM A VICTIM” afterwards.

I know.
It would have to be typed.

It doesn’t need to be typed because it’s implicit.

It’s the nature of the game, it’s the marketing of the game, its the game’s reputation and the advice we all give each other.

It’s wrapped up best in the 8 golden rules:

Just being in space is acknowledgement enough.

okay.

Consent is different from requesting.
As said. Own your actions. sure the target could have done something but there is always something more a target could have done.

Stupid extremes are stupid.

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I still don’t get what you mean. Should I feel bad because I shot someones spaceship in a spaceship shooting game or something?

Please mister, can we PvP, please?

OMG :rofl:

lololol

Pretty Please???

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No. You shouldn’t feel bad.
But you shouldn’t go putting it as if they made you do it either.
You decided they were a good target for “insert reason” and made your choice to shoot them.

That reason may have been a moment’s carelessness on their part, it may have been the value of the cargo, it may be that today you decided to gank every DST you could for lols.

None of that makes it their fault they got ganked. It just gave you a reason for your action. The two are different things.

So if I kill the Hulk it wasn’t his fault it exploded. What if he undocks another Hulk and continues mining and I explode that one as well? Still not his fault?

Still your fault. you took the action that made it explode. Certainly foolish on their part. But not their fault it blew up. That part was your choice.

So lets say I exploded his first Hulk. He docks and from there he has multiple options. Let’s say he has another Hulk and a Skiff in his hangar. So he could:

  1. Use the Skiff to mine because as he has seen I have only two gank chars and that is not enough to kill him again.
  2. Use the second Hulk to mine
  3. Stay docked

He goes with option 2 and I explode him again 10min later. Would you say it wasn’t his fault to go with option 2? Is he in no way responsible for the choices HE makes given the nature of this game and the actual situation he finds himself in?

You are still responsible for blowing him up regardless of his choices.
Yes hes got to take responsibility for being risky. But the final fault, and I use the word fault loosely all through here btw, is yours. You pulled the trigger.
Now like I said. dont feel bad. It is a game where blowing people up is part of the game.
But dont use victim blaming arguments to pass over your responsibility to them. They took a risk, you blew them up. That’s all it is. Own your part.

I just think you completely lost the ability to think of EVE as a computer game. You mix your judgement about a situation that happens in a game setting where certain things are expected and even encouraged with how such a situation would be judged in the real world. This is not the same, EVE is not the real world it is a game.

I tried to make this clear by comparing it to simpler games where the effect is obvious, somehow you can’t make the connection.

In EVERY GAME, no matter the setting, the rules, whatever. if you lose a match, a round, a ship or a battle and it isn’t pure RNG, the fault has to be with the player who lost. There is no growing as a player if you shift the blame to the one who bested you, only self pity and misery.

I tell you this in an attempt to help you not to win an argument. It is an extremely unhealthy attitude to have as a gamer and it will make you hate your hobby instead of having fun during your playtime. Because if you shift the blame you can’t control it, you are at the complete mercy of others who you think are at fault your stuff explodes and you can’t do a thing about it.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a computer game or real life. Who is at ‘fault’ for things is still the same. It’s the person who takes the action. And you take the action of blowing them up.
Like I said. It’s not a bad thing to blow them up. But it is still your action. They did not make you do it. That makes you responsible for doing it.

Can I learn and do things differently to reduce your opportunity to do so to me. In some cases yes. In other cases I just have to shrug and write the loss off. But none of that makes it my fault you ganked me.

The only person here (in this sub conversation) trying to shift responsibility is you.

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Yeah ok, looks like I’m talking to a wall here. In the end you only hurt yourself with this attitude given you don’t teach that to other players. And I really hope you don’t.

Obviously one is responsible for making the winning move in a game. But I honestly don’t see how stating this fact drives the argument further? But then again, when has a pvp vs anti-pvp argument ever been productive… lmao.

Also, being responsible and being at fault, is not really the same thing. Probably why it is hard to really understand where the hell you are going with your argument.