Current State of Suicide Ganking

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
1

Suicide ganking has been a part of Eve Online for a long time. Many will tell you there’s no real safe place, in space. I get that. Like many, I never fly anything that I can’t easily replace. I avoid low and null sec unless I’m prepared to lose something. I prefer high-sec space in general. I’m a long-time player, with three accounts, the oldest being 11 years old. I recently canceled my subscriptions to all three accounts.

GMs reading this can reference this support ticket for specific details.

Support ticket: 2134632

The current suicide ganking mechanic is unbalanced and unfair, and I would argue against the EULA. I would also argue that there was an oversight with changes that occurred this time last year to mitigate these exact types of large-scale ganks.

Release Notes 2022-11-08

“Alpha clone state characters can no longer change their safety setting to Red.”

The release notes from November of 2022 show a change that stopped Alpha clone state characters from changing their safety to red in the High-Security space. My understanding is that this was done to squelch the high volume of ganks committed using large fleets of alpha clones piloting catalysts.

This was a much-welcome change for those of us who intentionally avoid PVP. These types of ganks are unstoppable and very difficult to defend against if you get caught up in one. Currently, no game mechanic in place balances out the impact of a large fleet of alts in catalysts used to gank a freighter.

Anyone who multi-boxes like me will know how difficult it can be to manage more than a couple of characters at once. I’ve stayed with three accounts, mostly for mining operations for that reason. In other fleet activities, I play with a single character and only use an alt in a support role that doesn’t require a lot of attention.

So, how do these suicide gankers control so many alts in catalysts? I’m told by GMs and other players these gankers use a tool called EVE-O. I hadn’t heard of this before so I looked it up.

It’s a tool that provides an overview of thumbnails for multiple EVE clients. The program allows for fast switching between active clients.

On the EVE-O page, the author states that you should NOT use EVE-O for any actions that might break the EULA or ToS.

“Under any conditions you should NOT use EVE-O Preview for any actions that might break EULA or ToS of EVE Online.”

That brings me to section 6, item 3 of the EVE Online End User License Agreement (EULA).

EULA section 6, item 3:

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.”

While EVE-O doesn’t broadcast keyboard or mouse events to the clients, it is, by definition, third-party software that allows for a specific pattern of play, that does “…facilitate the acquisition of items, currency, objects … at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.”

Try and kill a freighter with a fleet of catalysts without the help of something like this running to help you manage all of the clients. I bet it doesn’t happen as fast if at all.

The ambiguity of the statement “ordinary Game play” also lends to the interpretation that “ordinary Game play” would be a single client, or the use of the default Windows shortcut of alt+tab to switch between open clients. Since the definition of “ordinary Game play” isn’t stated in the EULA the GMs have no grounds to argue against my interpretation. I challenge them to speak to their legal team if they disagree.

Regarding the oversight, I mentioned previously. While the developers managed to take care of the scenario of free Alpha clone clients being used for massive, catalyst gank fleets, they missed the occasional situation of free Omega clone clients.

When CCP gives us “8 free days of Omega” it’s a great way to check out what you’re missing with an Alpha clone. Plus, it’s free game time which is always appreciated.

The downside is now all of those bad actors that were blocked from ganking using Alpha accounts before being granted 8 free days to wreak havoc on those of us trying to enjoy our chosen method of gameplay in EVE Online.

Full disclosure, I was recently a victim of a catalyst fleet gank. A handful of real pilots in a fleet of 25+ catalysts were used to destroy my freighter in Uedama. It isn’t the cost that bothers me. Like I said I don’t fly anything I can’t replace. It’s the principle of the situation.

The gank was done in a manner that goes against the EULA. These bad actors are exploiting what I deem to be an oversight by the developers. This behavior should not be encouraged.

When I reached out to support the reply I got was that this is expected gameplay. Plus long definitions of ganking, suicide ganking, and an encouragement to share my concerns in the forums and with the CSM.

I asked to have my stuff restored in the support ticket, I pleaded my case with some of the details I have shared here, and they told me they have a strict policy against doing so.

So I canceled the subscriptions on my accounts. CCP will lose the subscription money from a long-time player, with good standing, in favor of folks that go against the EULA and ToS that we all agreed to.

I’m writing this forum post in hopes that something changes to help prevent the same thing from happening to other players. I would resubscribe if I was given my items back. It doesn’t seem like that idea will even be entertained.

2 Likes
2

Eve O allows people to multibox. Ccp allows multiboxing. How eve o is used is not breaking any rules.

4 Likes
3

TL;DR: „I lost my stuff in a gank, I am totally not mad about that, it’s the principle of the matter, ban Gankers for EULA violations, also give me my stuff back, I’m gonna quit, but I am totally not mad and supportive of ganking in the game.“

7 Likes
4

I myself rarely dip into pvp combat, I’m mainly an industrialist. You’re missing a few things.

You’re trying to enjoy your preferred method of playing, so are the gankers. They are not “bad actors”. They are other players that have the same rights that you do.

There is no safe space in Eve, period. If you were ganked by 25 cats then you were carrying loot that made it worth their time and/or using cargo expanders that made it easier to kill your ship with fewer gankers. You could also have been autopiloting. Even if none of these apply, people are allowed to shoot you in high sec provided they’re willing to deal with the consequences.

Uedama has been ganker central for years. Check Dotlan or the in game map for kills per hour, this will tell you when they’re active.

High sec pvp has been nerfed time and time again over the years and it’s never enough for care bears. Gankers are up against enormous disadvantages and have been for years. The nature of a sandbox game is that all players have to learn and adapt to changes. The gankers do this, you apparently don’t.

Ganking does not violate the EULA, this was settled years ago. Neither does Eve-o as you have to issue a command to each client you’re running. Eve-o just maximizes one client and minimizes all the others.

If someone does something that you don’t like in a sandbox game and your reaction is to try and take all of the sand out of the box for them, then you are the problem.

I realize this sounds harsh but it’s the truth. As far as the unsubs are concerned… good riddance. The sandbox will be better off without you. Can I have your stuff?

3 Likes
5

@OP:

  • Why do you jump a freighter to Uedama, a known ganking hotspot, knowing that there is a ganksquad of 25 Catalysts waiting to kill freighters? …Wait… you DID scout Uedama and check if there is a ganksquad waiting… right?

  • If other people use ships of 25 accounts (probably more because of scout, scanner, looters…) to bring your one ship down, what other result did you expect? It is easy to understand that 25 armed spaceships vs 1 unarmed spaceship will result in the destruction of the one unarmed spaceship. I cannot understand the thought-process behind the idea that you should have somehow survived that attack. Knowing it would come, because… Uedama is a known ganking hotspot and you did scout it before jumping, did you?

  • If you had used just 5 Accounts to counter their 25, you would have survived. Nobody forces you to play solo against a crew of professionals. Your ship died because you did not even put 10% the effort into your goal of surviving your trip as the gankers put effort into destroying your ship. Thats why they won.

6

In the context of something like mining and industry, the tool doesn’t break the EULA. The rate at which you mine ores or create things is based on skills, ship fits, and implants. Using the tool does not increase that rate as defined in the EULA.

In the context of PVP where response time is everything the tool provides a means for a measurable reduction in response time. This is where the tool facilitates that “accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.”

7

I’m fine with ganking. If you reread my post you’ll see that I never mentioned once that Ganking itself violates the EULA. Had this been done with a legitimate fleet of players I wouldn’t have said anything.

What I’m conveying is the use of tools like EVE-O that break the EULA provides an unfair advantage. Either the EULA should be updated accordingly or the GMs should enforce the rules of the agreement we all signed up for.

Maybe come up with something more constructive than “The sandbox will be better off without you” before your next reply. Better yet, maybe if you read my original post more slowly you’ll have a better understanding. Perhaps the words I used were too big for you.

8

The truth is you would have died anyway even if Eve-O was forbidden software.

There are videos of people like Kusion out there who simply alt-tab + click rapidly through their clients to make sure you die.

Trying to pretend it’s some software‘s fault is just deliberately writing „Kick me“ on your forehead on these forums.

2 Likes
9

Yes, I scouted ahead, and they weren’t in local chat / dscan at the time. I must have just missed them. You’re missing the point though. Reread the post and specifically read the words used in the EULA compared to the context in which EVE-O is being used.

It’s amazing how you came up with 10% effort given you weren’t there and had zero details on what was done beforehand. Try coming up with something more constructive than your cynical opinion about ganking in general. The point of the post was how it’s being done not that it’s done in general.

10

No I am not.

  • How many real players exactly were behind those Catalysts at the time of the gank? Please be specific and present proof of your claim.
  • Exactly what software did they use when they ganked you? How do you know and what proof do you have? Again, don’t be shy, please present everything you can prove.
  • Do you realize that 25 Catlysts on 25 Omega Accounts are a 100% “legitimate fleet”? There is absolutely nothing against the EULA/TOS to multibox them. If you suspect them to use any kind of software to be more efficient than a human player could be, you would have to present hard facts for that. Like, do you have a video showing them all moving, locking, firing in the exact same second? Did they all do roughly the same damage on the killmail (that would indicate that they all begun firing at the same time).

But let me guess:

  • you don’t know how many real players that were
  • you don’t know if or what softwere they were using
  • you made mistakes prior to the gank that led to the destruction of your ship but you feel better claiming it was an unfair software advantage. A simple scout just before you jump your freighter would have saved it. Given that the scout knows how to identify gankers in Local… 25 Catalysts don’t appear magically after not being visible on Dscan, because your scout could have webbed your freighter into warp in less than 3 seconds. You could have prevented that gank a 100%, but you didn’t. That is no cynical opinion, that is a simple fact. They used your mistakes to kill you, it’s simple as that.
2 Likes
11

looks like it was Kusion lol

3 Likes
12

Looks like all the Catalysts have declining damage numbers, which means they activated the guns one after each other with a slight delay. Else they would have - while still not exactly the same - but roughly comparable total damage done on the freighter.

After all, nothing a Human couldn’t do quickly with correctly stacked client windows showing only a very small part of the overview and pre-overheated/pre-activated guns on all accounts. One probably does need less than 5 seconds to fire all 25 accounts this way. Maybe he even has used a software to make it more convenient to click, but it’s nothing that couldn’t be also achieved the old-fashioned way.

3 Likes
13

No ? the damage on each shot ranges from 51% to 300%.

14

That doesn’t really matter over multiple shots as it averages out. I have ganked before with some corpmates in ships that all had the exact same fits, we all had the same skills, boosters running, implants etc. and guess what, when we fired all at roughly the same time, we ended up with roughly the same damage done on the killmail.

The best “Kusion” Alt did 13138 damage, the worst one 6683 (Jimmy Kusion). Now when I look at a lossmail of dear Jimmy, he is able to use a complete T2 fit (Catalyst | Jimmy Kusion | Killmail | zKillboard) and we can safely assume in the freigther kill he used the same fit as the best performing pilot (Jayson Kusion). This is simply explainable by Jimmy having activated his guns quite some ticks later than Jayson, while both got erased by CONCORD at the same time, so Jimmy had some cycles less to fire.

15

Actually thats not true. You lost a freighter against full omega toons. Exactly like before the Alpha thingy.

CCP should revert this part to allow people who wants to try ganking, take a taste of it with an alpha toon. They have caped skills, very low dps and you cant multibox alphas.

So I am going to use this topic to ask CCP to bring back the red safety for alpha toons.

@Brisc_Rubal I dont care if you are not CSM, say something.

2 Likes
16

Shadow serpentis istabs… almost 5 billion in cargo.

50% chance for items to drop means about 2.6 billion in loot. 25 T2 fitted cats costs about 250 million. So around 2.3 billion in loot split 25 or so ways… almost 100 million ISK per pilot.

Fit just T2 reinforced bulkheads and keep the cargo below 2 billion and they almost certainly would not have hit you. You made yourself a target.

17

My man, we have way more omegas than you do, they lose way more by having us canceling the subscriptions than losing some player already in the verge of uninstalling because of boredom.

2 Likes
18

No, multiple shots don’t average out.
On 104 shots with 1% chance to crit, 1 critical shot is +2 shots in terms of applied damage, so with 0 crits you make as much damage as someone with one less cycle (so 96 shots) but 4 crits.
Assuming all non crit do 100% damage whil actually, they don’t (51 to 150%).

That’s non sense.
In the end they would use more of a cheaper fit. What counts is the ratio of damage inflicted per isk invested.
There nothing that makes you a target, but the game.

19

Not that it matters since it isn’t banned but how do you know if your ganker was using Eve-O.

There’s plently of videos on youtube where you can see it being done just by alt-tabbing, including what we assume is your ganker, so some research is probably needed before accusing people of not following the rules :

Where the rules are talking about modifying the user interface they are referring to this kind of thing which was banned a long time ago:

2 Likes
20

There isn’t a gank that’s not avoidable by using a little bit of your brain. Sorry but it is what it is. The fact that you got ganked means that you failed to turn on your thinking machine or just wanted to get ganked so you can complain.

I still gank people alone with 20 alpha gankers in catalysts. It’s the easiest thing to do, I love it!

(But seriously I encourage you to try it and see how it really is to gank people. It’s really not as easy as it seems.)

P.S. 25 catalysts paying for Omega is more than your 3 accounts. Not sure why are you trying to use that as “threats”

1 Like